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Writing and Speaking

paulgraham.com

131–140 of 240 posts

Re: Writing and Speaking

#131
post #58

I dunno, I think the definition of "good speaker" really depends on the audience. I probably speak for many here as an introverted, deeply introspective outlier. I have seen many great speakers in person (Tony Robbins, Zig Ziglar, Deepak Chopra, Steven Covey) and almost always come away underwhelmed. I struggle to understand why the audience gets so worked up with so little content transferred. I have trouble with co…

I work in an academic setting and most of us use writing to convey our ideas and use the speaking opportunity to advertise the things we have written about. So a good academic speech needs to have low idea density to serve its purpose. It should only present the core ideas to get the audience interested in reading what you have written. I am sure if pg starts to see his speeches performing a different function than the writings he will enjoy the speaking assignments more.

Re: Writing and Speaking

#132
Hmmmm.

I think there is an important set of ideas here, I don't necessarily think pg expresses them well (which might be ironic, given the topic...).

I love to speak. I regularly give talks to my old school, and another school I went to briefly. Last year I was asked to speak at the university department I went to, which was fantastic. I also love to write; fiction and non-fiction. About myself, about ideas, about made up stuff. I started both of these things, really, in about 2006. At that point I was awful at both - particularly writing. If I could overcome the nerves I was good at speaking, but my writing was disjointed and confusing.

The first lesson I learned is; skill comes with practice.

8 years later, I'm still not the best of writers. But I'm not the worst either. That took me (estimating Wikipedia contribution, forums/message boards, lengthy emails, blogs, etc.) a significant part of 2 million words.

God it was fun!

Over that time I learned a second thing; which is that speaking is hugely trivial. And writing requires intense depth.

I used to look at motivational speakers and think "what a lot of bullshit". Which it definitely is. But it is inspiring bullshit. Speech is about arousing emotion and interest; a good speaker tries to excite a listener into thinking about a topic. And leaves them wanting to find out more about it - typically by reading.

Take "Wear Sunscreen"[1]. Any aspiring speaker and writer should read and understand how utterly brilliant that piece of address is. I only wish it was a real address - because that is a writer who damn well understands speaking!

A good writer has a whole lot more tools to her disposal than a good speaker. For a start she has much more of your attention - it's easy to zone out from a speaker, especially if it's a guy giving your commencement address or a class lecture (where you expect some level of droning boredom). Usually reading is a choice - you are digging into something, and you are willing to process more detail. For a speaker the attention span is much shorter - the listener can't pause and run back over the last sentence. They have to consume in real time.

So for me, well, I want to be a brilliant speaker and a brilliant writer. I want to give you a speech that inspires you, and I want to write about things that mean something to you.

pg talks about the good speaker and mentions laughter as a tool. He pitches that as representing a successful talk, but having no depth. I disagree - I'd say that is a bad talk. Laughter is certainly a useful tool in moderation. But in my experience newbie speakers, who have progressed beyond the "um" (sorry pg!) stage into "I want to learn this art", see a laughing audience and think the nut is cracked.

Far from it! You've got them listening for an instant - but your joke isn't likely to be inspiring. These speakers are the true hacks - they try to hang useful things off of many jokes, and largely fail. I'm not a brilliant speaker, yet, but I think I am past this stage. And what you learn is that a joke can grab their attention - and then you have a short time to make use of that interest. Another joke doesn't give them anything... If he walked away from that talk without any useful information - even a springboard for more research - then the speaker failed.

If he transcribed those speeches and his had more content perhaps there is something to consider; could he use the talents of that "good" speaker to hook the interest of the audience and impart a hunger to read his much more impressive writings?

The art of speaking is to use these hooks. A joke is the simplest - but there are many more. Repetition, as exampled by Martin Luther-King, or irony. The list is really endless.

This is why "Wear Sunscream" is brilliant. The whole thing is a joke, sure; but it has loads of useful advice as well. The speech shifts around, using all manner of hooks to keep the audience interested and amused, whilst imparting advice. And best of all it leaves you wanting to know more.

Which is when the writing comes in.

OK. pg says a lot of the same things as I have; but where he comes off as being critical of hooky speech, I think it has a good place :) We should all be better writers and speakers.

Perhaps this is bullshit too, I don't know, it's probably not good writing...

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_Sunscreen

Re: Writing and Speaking

#133
post #83

False modesty aside, I am a very good public speaker. Doing debate in high school, I had an undefeated regular season, as in not losing a single round. I say this just to point out that I'm not a mediocre public speaker championing the written word. Paul Graham is right, but it depends more on context than he suggests: Speaking about a technical subject, you want to communicate the ideas themselves. The emotional con…

This may be particular to the field of biology, but I find biology talks to be much more interesting than papers. One contributing factor is that important papers in Science and Nature are subject to stringent length limitations. This limits the writer's ability to unfurl a coherent narrative. Oftentimes, years of research are condensed into a handful of figures and sentences that cannot convey the more subtle points…

As someone who's passed as a native in physics, biology, compsci, and math, this is peculiar to biology, or rather to the culture of academic biology today, where the laurels go to those who can make the biggest mountain out of their molehill of data. Thus you have grand assertions, followed by a slide with a dozen gels, half of which are blurred, which show that under some very strenuous assumptions and some very particular conditions, something might be a certain way if you squint hard enough.

Journal length limits are partially responsible for the culture of bad writing in academic biology, but it cannot explain why most of my colleagues in biology could not express technical ideas clearly in writing even without length limits.

If you go to the older literature you will find papers much clearer than any biology talk I've heard. Arthur Koch's papers on cell shape are good examples. There was also a culture of monographs that is missing today. The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are one by Henrici (http://www.archive.org/details/morphologicvaria00henr) and Schrodinger's 'What is life?'(whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf ) are the two examples that occur to me off the top of my head, or Chargaff's scientific essays in 'Heraclitean Fire'.

Disclaimer: I loathe the culture of academic biology and believe that most of its practitioners should be defunded in favor of serious biological research.

Re: Writing and Speaking

#134

I've learned that there is a difference between being a good speaker and being a polished speaker. PG isn't very polished - there are tons of uhms and some inherent awkwardness to his talks, but I still consider him a very good speaker. With his awkwardness on stage comes some natural sense of charisma. The audience laughs, feels engaged, and is glued to the speaker wondering with anticipation what he's going to say…

Yes to your first sentence; I'm not sure about the rest.

I couldn't help but feel this essay was in response to an earlier HN thread where his speaking style was criticized a bit for its unpolished nature & being essentially "un-listenable to" on a podcast somewhere.

IF that is the case, then he seems to have missed the point that no matter how much good content you have, if you are so unpolished that you can't deliver the message effectively, you almost may as well not talk.

"no one, uhm, is, uhm, going to, uhm, sit still for, uhm, and hour and a half, of, uhm..."

Re: Writing and Speaking

#135
post #31

I've noticed that audiences laugh a lot and that most of what they laugh at is actually not very funny. Most people wouldn't normally laugh at the same things, unless they were really nervous. No doubt social proof is a big part of this: people laugh because others are laughing, as the essay says. Audiences are their own laugh track. But something has to start the ball rolling. I wonder if it's related to authority.…

I've noticed that audiences laugh a lot and that most of what they laugh at is actually not very funny. Isn't the very definition of funny is that it makes people laugh? Laughter is inherently a social, group bonding phenomena. Inherently, a social, group gathering will have more laughter. There is no such thing as something being objectively funny, funny only exists inside a group and social context, which provides…

Yes. The next sentence was intended to explain what I meant.

Re: Writing and Speaking

#136
post #105
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you think that passage implies "people who speak [well] cannot think." All I'm saying is that speaking well depends little on having good ideas. That doesn't imply people who speak well can't have good ideas, just that they don't need to. Playing soccer well depends little on having good ideas. Is someone who says that saying "clarity of thought or soccer ability, pick one?"

Now you're putting a spin on that passage that's simply not in the text. Quit the contrary: it's the opposite of what your essay seems to be suggesting. > "I don't want to be a good speaker." Why would you think that if rhetoric ability and good ideas are fully orthogonal? It'd amount to "The dude on stage is a brilliant speaker, which has nothing to do with inventiveness and clarity of thought, so I don't want to be…

The point was that before I watched this speaker in action, I still retained some of my naive belief that being a good speaker depended a lot on having good ideas. So when observing the super-duper speaker in real time confirmed what I'd noticed after the fact about the pretty-good speaker at the conference, I was more sure of it.

Re: Writing and Speaking

#137
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you're putting a spin on that passage that's simply not in the text. Quit the contrary: it's the opposite of what your essay seems to be suggesting. > "I don't want to be a good speaker." Why would you think that if rhetoric ability and good ideas are fully orthogonal? It'd amount to "The dude on stage is a brilliant speaker, which has nothing to do with inventiveness and clarity of thought, so I don't want to be…

I think you have a point that "I don't want to be a good speaker" implies something negative about being a good speaker. In context it can be understood as being a good speaker is in opposition to the goal of having better ideas. Perhaps a less controversial phrasing would be "I don't want to put forth the effort towards becoming a good speaker". However, a more in depth reading is that being a good speaker is in opp…

You're right; if I wanted to be sure I couldn't be misinterpreted, I could have put it in something like the way you suggest. But I felt like a reasonably intelligent person with no axe to grind would understand what I meant. You always face this tradeoff in writing. If you hedge every statement so carefully that it couldn't be used by someone determined to misrepresent you, you end up with something that resembles a statement by a corporate PR department.

Re: Writing and Speaking

#138
post #127

There is two links to steve jobs' talks [1][2] that are not rendered because of some kind of typo. the opening tag of which i believe is intended to be an anchor tag is "nota" instead of "a". [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmG9jzCHtSQ

This also breaks the Safari Reader (similar to Readability).

Re: Writing and Speaking

#140
post #58

I dunno, I think the definition of "good speaker" really depends on the audience. I probably speak for many here as an introverted, deeply introspective outlier. I have seen many great speakers in person (Tony Robbins, Zig Ziglar, Deepak Chopra, Steven Covey) and almost always come away underwhelmed. I struggle to understand why the audience gets so worked up with so little content transferred. I have trouble with co…

When I heard PG speak at PyCon last weekend, I hardly even noticed any 'ums' - in fact, it wasn't until I saw it raised on HN that I remembered it. I was thoroughly engaged in his ideas, and my mind likely used those pauses to process what he was saying.

The weird thing is, I've now started to notice the ums myself. I was talking to the founders at the last tuesday dinner and suddenly started catching myself every time I did it. I found that if I made a conscious effort to, I could suppress them. But when I was talking about something interesting, I'd forget and start umming again.
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