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Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

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Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention Apple only has to support a limited number of hardware and they regularly drop support for older hardware with each new major release.

That may be so, but all the annoyances I have with windows don't seem hardware-support related. The laggy menus, the clock in the taskbar that slides to the right outside of view, etc. This can't possibly be related to the fact I have a shiny, brand-new Wi-Fi card.

>the clock in the taskbar that slides to the right outside of view, etc.

What? I've never seen the taskbar clock ever move.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

try running a plain c linux userspace program from the 90s without recompiling it on any modern distro of your choice

Specifically you can't run a.out binaries anymore and ELF came about in 98. So that's a pretty hard limit. Linux can run binaries that were compiled to the latest binary standard in 98.

how about the oldest elf on the latest x86 distro available? please dont ruin my contrived abi changes example!

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple employs “Release Managers”, where a single person is ultimately responsible for deciding which features ship in new projects. Apple also, due to the hardware business, adheres to a release schedule where features must all be consolidated onto single branches (“convergence”), rather than letting individual teams ship incrementally.

Not to mention Apple only has to support a limited number of hardware and they regularly drop support for older hardware with each new major release.

These issues from the original comment are not related to Microsoft supporting a wide variety of hardware:

> ...the UI with Bing/Ads/telemetrics/etc integration is so crap...

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-example: Soldier of Fortune is broken on modern windows because of a misapplied compatibility hack. Rename the binary and it works with no problems. This is an awful way to implement backwards compatibility. Opaque and ad-hoc. They have been using similar toolset to break competitors applications. The choice of what old version of windows to run the program on is typically to try them one by one. Linux is no…

> Mac is a mixed bag of excellent Rosetta and breaking apps for no reason. They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta. Apple usually seems to care about getting the bulk of applications to transition over, and the rest is just collateral damage/the devs should’ve just updated their software.

Definitely. All Intel Mac apps will be abandoned. Even tiny apps like Spectacle will cause pain.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention Apple only has to support a limited number of hardware and they regularly drop support for older hardware with each new major release.

These issues from the original comment are not related to Microsoft supporting a wide variety of hardware: > ...the UI with Bing/Ads/telemetrics/etc integration is so crap...

Those issues are because some exec in Microsoft decided that they can monetize user data and since users already don't care their data being monetized by Google, then they themselves not monetizing it as well, means leaving money on the table since users don't care anyway.

That's the logic. Using Windows web components is similar to using Google products.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the mandatory MSFT accounts to sign in with no way around last I checked (a few months ago).

Is this Windows 11? On 10 Pro you were just able to click past it. Need it for office though, I think.

Windows 11 Home requires you to get a working internet connection to continue. Windows 11 Pro doesn't as of the 22H2 version but it still has dark patterns. For Office you can still use other licensing methods, even for O365, but as a typical consumer getting it legitimately you'll de facto need a Microsoft account.

Using "no@thankyou.com" for your Microsoft account (and any made up value for the password) allows you to skip this requirement in any version of 10/11 as someone got that account banned and the Microsoft workflow bails out since they naturally don't want to force onboard a banned user to a new account. This still requires internet during install though, it just works around needing to make an actual account.

It's a shame how much of a dance the install process has become.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-example: Soldier of Fortune is broken on modern windows because of a misapplied compatibility hack. Rename the binary and it works with no problems. This is an awful way to implement backwards compatibility. Opaque and ad-hoc. They have been using similar toolset to break competitors applications. The choice of what old version of windows to run the program on is typically to try them one by one. Linux is no…

> Mac is a mixed bag of excellent Rosetta and breaking apps for no reason. They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta. Apple usually seems to care about getting the bulk of applications to transition over, and the rest is just collateral damage/the devs should’ve just updated their software.

> They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta.

Counterpoint: The PPC-to-Intel version of Rosetta was licensed technology (QuickTransit); Apple was undoubtedly paying for it, possibly even per user, so there were financial reasons for them to get users off of it ASAP.

Rosetta 2 was developed in-house by Apple, so there isn't the same hard timeline to get users to stop using it. I wouldn't expect it to survive long beyond support for running the OS on x86, though.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#138
post #86

All the people on that Twitter thread getting butthurt about it and complaining that Windows' backwards compatibility is a bad thing... WTF koolaid have they been drinking? I don't often sing Microsoft's praises but backwards compatibility is something they get absolutely right: something they've always got right. Everything doesn't have to be changing and breaking all the time and, to me, it's a mark of maturity whe…

The Linux world would benefit strongly from having a much bigger commitment to backwards compatibility in foundational libraries. Obviously there is nobody who can force e.g. OpenSSL to keep supporting old versions or to provide them as wrappers over the latest version, or to force GTK to keep around working versions of libraries exposing all interfaces dating from GTK 1.0 onwards. But if we could have a project to d…

That's pretty much exactly what Red Hat does with their Enterprise Linux.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Filesystems are a database and have to deal with CAP Theorem trade-offs like everything else. Windows and NTFS both took a heavy focus on Consistency/(lack of) Partitions over Availability. Most POSIX operating systems and their filesystems took a heavy focus on Availability at the expense of Eventual Consistency and Sometimes Partitions. Neither approach is wrong, they are just very different approaches with very di…

a local filesystem that can only be mounted once and of which state is 100% controlled by one entity (the local kernel) is not a distributed system the CAP theorem simply does not apply Windows IO subsystem was simply designed for extensibility over performance

A) It's a useful analogy whether or not you think it technically applies or is a perfect analogy.

B) The Windows filesystem (and to an extent the POSIX) isn't just "local", it also includes transparent and semi-transparent network file storage.

C) Windows and POSIX are both multi-user and multi-process. They operate over multiple cores and multiple I/O buses.

Even if it just one system API centralized in charge of all that, it still needs to be built on top of complex distributed dance of mutexes/locks/semaphores/other distributed control structures. Because of the nature of I/O control there are complex caches involved and transaction semantics of when data is actually pulled from/flushed to low level data stores. The transaction model in turn is reflected in what the files look like to other users or processes running at the same time.

Windows and NTFS combined have strong transaction guarantees that other users and processes must see a highly consistent view of the same files. It makes heavy uses of locks by default even for cached data. POSIX favors the "inode" approach that favors high availability and fewer locks at the cost of eventual consistency and the occasional partition (the "same" file can and will sometimes have multiple "inodes" between different processes/users, many common Linux tools rely heavily on that).

Those two different transaction models are most easily explained in analogy to CAP Theorem. They are very different transaction models with different trade-offs. Whether or not you see a single "local machine" or you see a distributed system of cores, processes, users, diverse I/O buses is partly a matter of perspective and will reflect how well you personally think CAP Theorem is a "perfect" analogy for a filesystem.

Re: Windows 11 will happily execute a binary compiled 30 years ago

#140
post #71
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not similar at all! Windows takes the "Linux way" of "not breaking userspace" seriously. OpenBSD has other goals - some sense of minimality and clarity, but this is not one.

> That's not similar at all! That was the joke, friend.

If it was a joke, my bad !
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