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Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

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Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#131

Post by dmurray »

hgomersall wrote: post #120
cowthulhu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s literal dead weight. It’s especially bad because the bikes already don’t have great ranges (and the estimated ranges are often pretty optimistic), and extra dead weight cuts into your limited range even further.

Do you have specific knowledge on this? I'd be surprised if it was literally dead weight. It's much easier to design a software control system that uses a common set of cells and caps the full charge than one that switches different cell blocks in depending on what's enabled.

Is it? It seems like the simplest of circuits to disconnect one cell from the rest.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#132

Post by dharmab »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #123
mmh0000 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might just be a bad bike parent, but, my current shaft drive bike has ~42,000 miles on it. It had the shaft-oil replaced once at 800 miles (per manual, break in period). My bike has been rock-fucking-solid. Its been in the shop once for a real break in 16 years for a busted fuel line. (not including tires and engine oil changes). Its really hard for me to believe another bike could be as reliable.

I'm too lazy to grab my Honda's manual to check, but I'm pretty sure the recommended shaft oil change interval is way more than 10k miles. I'm thinking 48k km, which something like 30k mi.

On a current Gold Wing it's every 3 years. https://cdn.powersports.honda.com/documentum/MWOM/ml.remawmo...

On an R1200/R1250 it's 12,000 miles or 2 years.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#133

Post by ce4 »

dharmab wrote: post #106
zer8k wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $200/hr service charge most european motorcycle dealers charge. There are two things I can't do myself. Particularly, bleeding the ABS (which requires the dealer tool) and re-shimming the engine (which also requires a dealer tool). My local stealership wants exactly $200/hr for every service. An oil change for my motorcycle is $300, a brake job is $650. Mind you parts for these jobs are in the mid-to-low XX's. It…

> Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. Wow, your dealer is really raking their customers. Mine charges about $200 to check valves on a parallel twin.

That depends on the number of cylinders, valves per cylinder, and so on. Your parallel twin is probably easier to service (accessability of valve covers, valve mechanism). Some designs require the removal of the gas tank and even camshafts (eg Suzuki V-Strom).

(Old) Ducatis are also a pain with the desmodromic valves (i.e. springless valves). Some of their valves have 0,0 clearance and the mechanic needs to hone down shims to an exact fit. Also the reshimming needs to be redone on older Ducs after only a few thousand kilometers/miles, or annually.

In contrast, BMWs older air/oilcooled boxer engines are a joy to service, easiest accessability (cylinder heads stick out sideways), only 3 tools needed for adjusting valve clearances (two types of Torx/allen keys and a feeler gauge set), 20mins of work or less depending on your routine.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#134

Post by vladvasiliu »

dharmab wrote: post #132
vladvasiliu wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm too lazy to grab my Honda's manual to check, but I'm pretty sure the recommended shaft oil change interval is way more than 10k miles. I'm thinking 48k km, which something like 30k mi.

On a current Gold Wing it's every 3 years. https://cdn.powersports.honda.com/documentum/MWOM/ml.remawmo... On an R1200/R1250 it's 12,000 miles or 2 years.

Indeed, mine says every two years, doesn't specify mileage (it's a vfr).

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#135

Post by dharmab »

ce4 wrote: post #133
dharmab wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. Wow, your dealer is really raking their customers. Mine charges about $200 to check valves on a parallel twin.

That depends on the number of cylinders, valves per cylinder, and so on. Your parallel twin is probably easier to service (accessability of valve covers, valve mechanism). Some designs require the removal of the gas tank and even camshafts (eg Suzuki V-Strom). (Old) Ducatis are also a pain with the desmodromic valves (i.e. springless valves). Some of their valves have 0,0 clearance and the mechanic needs to hone down…

MY 90 minute number includes pulling the fuel tank, valve cover, camshafts and other body panels from my Suzuki. It's pretty quick if you're familiar with the procedure. I can have that bike torn down with all body panels and subframe off in about 10 minutes if I'm in a hurry.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#136

Post by ratg13 »

lelandbatey wrote: post #124
scrappyjoe wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not disagreeing with you - I believe that you should be able to use something you bought however you wish - but I think it is worth noting that the lower you allow depth of discharge, the more cycles you can squeeze out of a pack. So it’s not dead weight per se, its trading weight and range for pack longevity, which equates to economy over the life of the motorcycle.

Eh, no it's not. It's getting a monthly fee out of what could be a button or switch, a monthly fee that could be just an unpaid, free to use feature of the bike. This is some serious "c-suite message to help you fall asleep at night territory".

Even the phone in your pocket isn't using it's full battery potential (by design). You can hack this with software to "get more out of your battery", but really all you're doing is shortening the length of your battery life and creating a fire hazard.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#137

Post by benoliver999 »

porknubbins wrote: post #17

Are there any OEMs whose service manuals are hard to find? I restore cars and motorcycles and have never had trouble finding a pdf or hard copy for around $20. Its good that they are doing this though a lot of the secrets I’d want to know about an electric motorcycle are about the ECU when that software is some of the most tightly guarded of any.

I have a 2003 Citroen and it's easy to find the service manual but very hard to use it.

It's not a PDF you can just flip through, it's software.

You have to run it in a windows XP VM, following a very specific set of installation instructions. Getting locked out for no reason is very common (so you just boot a backup of the VM).

Not for the faint of heart.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#138

Post by matsemann »

mmh0000 wrote: post #36

I’ve been wanting an electric motorcycle for years. But every time I look at the pricing I just can’t justify it. An entry level electric bike for $25k or a top of the line BMW for $18k. It’s just not even a comparison.

No market for electric motorbikes. Based on my experience the reason for buying a motorbike is to be obnoxiously loud and disturb your whole city block. Can't do that with electric.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#139

Post by ce4 »

ce4 wrote: post #133
dharmab wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. Wow, your dealer is really raking their customers. Mine charges about $200 to check valves on a parallel twin.

That depends on the number of cylinders, valves per cylinder, and so on. Your parallel twin is probably easier to service (accessability of valve covers, valve mechanism). Some designs require the removal of the gas tank and even camshafts (eg Suzuki V-Strom). (Old) Ducatis are also a pain with the desmodromic valves (i.e. springless valves). Some of their valves have 0,0 clearance and the mechanic needs to hone down…

Answering dharmab's response

Ugh, pulling and especially re-inserting the camshaft shouldnt be done in a hurry. At least from my experience with the V-Strom's V-engine. Needs to be cooled down and insertion of the camshaft needs proper care (no dinging of the bearing shells) and one must make sure to not skip a tooth at the geartrain/chain.

Re: Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free

#140

Post by kiddico »

ratg13 wrote: post #136
lelandbatey wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, no it's not. It's getting a monthly fee out of what could be a button or switch, a monthly fee that could be just an unpaid, free to use feature of the bike. This is some serious "c-suite message to help you fall asleep at night territory".

Even the phone in your pocket isn't using it's full battery potential (by design). You can hack this with software to "get more out of your battery", but really all you're doing is shortening the length of your battery life and creating a fire hazard.

He understands it just fine.

He doesn't care how long the total life span is. It's perfectly capable of it (access to the option can be paid for so it's not equivalent to a hack) and he wants to go further on a single charge, so this is a perfectly reasonable tradeoff to make.

Just let the user make that choice without an absurd subscription.

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