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Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

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Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, Courtesy with customers is forced on them? My god! The next thing you'll tell me they're expected not to curse at their co-workers, too! What kind of world is this?! > it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conversation with customers. Once again, and as I already said in the very text…

Here’s a counter anecdote. > Another issue was the smiling. Walmart requires its checkout people to flash smiles at customers after bagging their purchases. Plastic bags, plastic junk, plastic smiles. But because the German people don’t usually smile at total strangers, the spectacle of Walmart employees grinning like jackasses not only didn’t impress consumers, it unnerved them. https://medium.com/the-global-millenn…

Yes, because this is about relative cultural norms. At what point did I claim otherwise?

Unlike everyone disagreeing with me, I'm not the one claiming my values and expectations are in some way universal or superior (though I can see how I might be read that way giving I'm defending our shared culture in this area, which can appear that I'm in some way advocating for its superiority, something I assure you I'm not intending to do).

It was the original commenter, complaining about "weird" Americans, who seems to think their values are the "normal" ones, when as you've just illustrated, normal is meaningless when talking about social and cultural conventions.

Do Germans have different expectations? Of course. And Russians have theirs. And the Australians have theirs. And the Canadians have theirs. None are right or wrong or "weird", they just are.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#132
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

> Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex. There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.

Customer: Not only should the servants serve, but smile while doing so.

Worker: F you, pay me.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would Amazon drivers unionizing cause Amazon to offshore drivers? If Amazon drivers unionizing would cause Amazon to eliminate drivers, does that suggest unions lack strength, or that unions have strength that Amazon fears?

Amazon drivers unionizing would cause Amazon to hire FedEx or DHL. Unions don't have a monopoly on drivers.

the whole reason Amazon has it's own drivers is because they can pay them way less. your example would actually represent a big success since ups/dhl/FedEx drivers have much better job security and benefits.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#134
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

I can not stand people who love setting weird standards on others. Music? They didn’t say hello to you when giving you your delivery? Why on earth do you care.

Playing music is fine. Blasting music is the problem. I don't like it when anyone blasts music in their car, not just mail carriers.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#135
They can unionize the firm they work for. However, if they unionize, then the union needs to work with the business to ensure they remain competitive with the other firms offering the service. However, unions don't appear to be terribly interested in a business remaining competitive.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#136
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shell company" isn't a legal term and has varying definitions, but generally is a company that only exists on paper and doesn't do anything. These companies deliver products for Amazon. Make sense to whom? People that have no experience with running a business and hiring subcontractors?

If you have a single product that kills people, you aren't legally allowed to put all your liabilities and none of your assets into another (non-shell, by your definition) company to get out of your liabilities. [0] What's happening here is quite similar. [0] See, for example, the J&J case, which was an even more generous form of the same.

> [0] See, for example, the J&J case, which was an even more generous form of the same.

I think you have seen a very simplified view of that situation, likely provided by the opposing lawyers. J&J has agreed to give that company 2 billion dollars and the bankruptcy filing would, essentially, be forcing the lawsuit against them to be settled for 2 billion dollars and then, most importantly to J&J, the matter wouldn't be a concern for the future. They are trying to limit being perpetually sued for the same issue.

There's also the situation where the bankruptcy judge has to accept the situation, [1] which did not happen, twice.

[1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/bankruptcy-law/j-j-is-left-wei...

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#137

Is this a theory, or proven? It makes a LOT of sense to do what Amazon is doing here. Why would you want to have a ton of depreciating vehicles on your balance sheet? Why would you want the maintenance burden? No need to worry about all the regional differences with vehicle/transport law - you allow people who are based in that region to do it (better). One could also argue this is good for the economy, in that there…

Is it really a smart business move from an economic point of view? Aside from some regional differences in vehicle/transport law (which I bet are not as different as you'd expect, a lot of this is federalized), this should cost Amazon more , not less . The scale works to their advantage. Having subcontractors is strictly more expensive since there's an extra layer of profit.

> which I bet are not as different as you'd expect, a lot of this is federalized

I've lived in 5 different states over the course of my life. The operating environment varies substantially. Local ordinances vary greatly. Fuel costs. Climate (vehicles in Phoenix are not exposed to rust, salt, etc while here in Michigan they are). Local labor laws, unemployment costs, insurance costs and restrictions. It's literally completely different in every state.

Businesses love to subcontract, particularly when it is outside their core competency. It's a line item on the expenses.

If unions did not exist I would posit that they would still operate this way.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#138
I'd be willing to accept a 0.25% less return annually on the S&P index if workers had meaningfully better existences. It might even increase returns if workers could be more productive by having dignified lives. This is the best way to frame thinking about things in our current macroeconomic environment.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#139

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

It must vary from area to area. In my area, you could swap "UPS" and "Amazon" in your story and it would fit. (Minus the music blasting - neither do that around here- and both wear identifying clothing.)

I always cringe a little when I get a UPS shipment notification, and I try my best to be home for it, for the best chance of success.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#140

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

Interesting how you can rehabilitate your image by just the existence of someone else that people want to hate. On the Internet, now:

- UPS is now apparently the height of professionalism

- Zuckerberg is the hero fighting off Elon Musk

- Microsoft are the good guys reining in OpenAI

Of course, this doesn't really match the common brand view. Really goes to show how Internet commenters are not representative.

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