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We are all animals at night

hazlitt.net

131–140 of 295 posts

Re: We are all animals at night

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. I'm…

I think this is accurate. Men are often ridiculed for thinking they are entitled anything. But especially so for sex and female attention.

It’s all accurate and inaccurate because people are all very different and come to different positions differently. Some believe they can “sin” under the cover of night and still keep their comfortable places in society as their sins weren’t seen nor known. Secrets and all that. Imagine how such a person would treat a sex worker. Could be very starkly different than what they’d expose the rest of the time.

You’ll notice I’m not working in absolutes here. She may have, but working the night she saw things that led her to draw certain conclusions from the things she saw and experienced.

I’d venture that she would be able to admit her experiences weren’t the end all be all of humanity though. But still very informative of the people in that space.

Edit-In my experience, whether someone is told explicitly that they can exploit another or not is irrelevant. The exploitive figure that out on their own often enough.

Re: We are all animals at night

#132
post #91
post #28

This is very well written and gripping even. I don’t see the negatives other commenters are pointing out. Yes she’s talking about her perceptions born from her clients and years worked. That’s an absolute right for all of us, right? To simply relate the experiences we’ve had. She’s definitely seen a side of humanity that, while seen by many, doesn’t quite often get public visibility-sunlight. And lo and behold, it’s…

> I don’t see the negatives other commenters are pointing out. Yes she’s talking about her perceptions born from her clients and years worked. That’s an absolute right for all of us, right? To simply relate the experiences we’ve had. She's not "simply relating experiences" though. She goes beyond that, turning them into a general sociopolitical claim: > Unlike sex work, my “good” jobs didn’t threaten to overthrow tra…

[dead]

Re: We are all animals at night

#133

Let's get this straight. The person blessed with what is basically a panhandling superpower -- an attractive female body -- somehow says her marks , the ones paying $80, have an entitled attitude toward sexual attention. Pause and think about that. Do you think these guys had a Plan B to buy them an English degree? These places conduct zero-sum economic activity. One person loses money, one person gains money, and no…

It's a transaction where (sometimes? most of the time?) neither party wants to be in the transaction.

Re: We are all animals at night

#134
post #105
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I feel coming from the trades into the offices, my colleagues are often surprised when I say the work we do is easy.

I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more?

Because money is not the only thing we gain by working. And few people optimise 100% for money. People work jobs for status, friends, pride, social good, stimulation, etcetera.

I have friends who change between different types of jobs, and their reasons are often surprising.

Re: We are all animals at night

#135
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more?

Who earned more, the architect for the pharoahs pyramid or the person pushing one of the massive slabs of rock? Which job was harder?

The question is which job requires more skill, not which job is harder

Re: We are all animals at night

#136
post #91
post #28

This is very well written and gripping even. I don’t see the negatives other commenters are pointing out. Yes she’s talking about her perceptions born from her clients and years worked. That’s an absolute right for all of us, right? To simply relate the experiences we’ve had. She’s definitely seen a side of humanity that, while seen by many, doesn’t quite often get public visibility-sunlight. And lo and behold, it’s…

> I don’t see the negatives other commenters are pointing out. Yes she’s talking about her perceptions born from her clients and years worked. That’s an absolute right for all of us, right? To simply relate the experiences we’ve had. She's not "simply relating experiences" though. She goes beyond that, turning them into a general sociopolitical claim: > Unlike sex work, my “good” jobs didn’t threaten to overthrow tra…

> She goes beyond that, turning them into a general sociopolitical claim

Also well within her right to do so.

Re: We are all animals at night

#137

Let's get this straight. The person blessed with what is basically a panhandling superpower -- an attractive female body -- somehow says her marks , the ones paying $80, have an entitled attitude toward sexual attention. Pause and think about that. Do you think these guys had a Plan B to buy them an English degree? These places conduct zero-sum economic activity. One person loses money, one person gains money, and no…

This place: Money in, nothing out. If this is the crux of the issue for you, I assume you don't frequent the following places: - bars - arcades - any entertainment venue (concerts, etc) The impression she seemed to be making was that many of their patrons weren't there for physical gratification but rather a sort of emotional catharsis. Yours is a highly judgmental and uncharitable take.

She's sneering at a bunch of schlubs and you're calling me the uncharitable one? You can frame this kind of stuff as therapy if you want, as something involving a pathetic kind of dignity, even as valuable work, but her essay does none of that. The only people with whom she evinces any solidarity are the convenience-store clerks and the taxi drivers. She basically says that this is not a good thing to be doing, which paradoxically means that her essay is in more logical agreement with my own condemnation of it than it is with your post. If there is to be an end to judgment and condemnation it has to begin with the author. She and I agree that exploitation is happening; we only disagree about whether it is good (or, "radical", she says). The catharsis you speak of, if real, is not something she cares about, because the people who experience it are not people she values.

Re: We are all animals at night

#138
post #105
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I feel coming from the trades into the offices, my colleagues are often surprised when I say the work we do is easy.

I mean, if this was true, then why do office workers generally earn more?

Position in the production hierarchy.

Consider a person that carves bespoke wooden figurines. Their job takes considerable skill, even talent. But it takes then X hours to make Y figurines. Time in, widgets out, completely proportional.

Now imagine a person that configures a robot to carve crappy mass produced figurines. Their work is differently skilled, but perhaps less so. The product isn't as good. Yet they put in their time once and the machine cranks out enormous quantities with minimal additional work from them. This has high leverage, they can command more pay because their leveraged work has more value.

You can go further up the hierarchy, to the people who organize or direct the technicians or the channels that distribute the products of their machines. Their work is further abstracted, skilled in its own way but not necessarily more so. But the amount of income their efforts command is greater still-- even more leveraged.

In areas where the use of the high-skill low-leverage work are largely optional-- say custom carpentry-- they often become unavailable because the sort of highly competent people who would excel at these tasks can make more money in a highly leveraged (but perhaps less skilled!) job writing boilerplate javascript to deliver advertising or whatever. In areas where the non-scalable work isn't optional, like medical doctors-- the prices tend to shoot through the sky in part due to the income an equivalent aptitude could command in a more leveraged position.

In between the two extremes we have workers that are just flat underpaid, and we rationalize the situation by imagining that they're less deserving.

As the article points out, many of these lowly paid jobs are highly skilled in their own way-- at least if done well. What they don't have, however, is a big initial training barrier to entry that limits the supply of capable people and puts market power for this labor onto the supply side.

Skill isn't a factor in wages except in so far as the required skill impacts the level of supply or demand in the supply/demand balance.

I think we often underestimate the capability of the average person because we can't know the average person and can't see first hand the depth of their ability and because we also so often put that average person in a situation that just doesn't exercise those latent abilities (or do, but do so in ways we don't respect due to cultural biases).

Re: We are all animals at night

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have men been told they're entitled to sex and attention for free tho? I kinda feel it's the exact opposite. Men are told they need to pay for meals, rooms, travel, and housing and custody later. Men are told they should be the proactive side and take the risk of being rejected. I'd even say (at least in TV shows and movies) men are expected to be the funny ones and provide entertaining values in a relationship. I'm…

> Have men been told they're entitled... Well...it is nice that you seem unaware of Andrew Tate, and the millions of boys and men who are eager followers of him and similar creeps...

I've literally only ever seen him mentioned for the sake of ridiculing him. I'm sure some followers of him exist just as I'm sure some neo-nazis exist, but is it anything other than a tiny fringe of irrelevant weirdos?
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