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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#131

Post by bdamm »

Y_Y wrote: post #129
bdamm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and the one that is accurate is what you get when you put in a destination. The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going, because of all these factors (altitude gain, direction of wind, speed limits on the various roads involved, etc) which have a very significant effect on the range. The idea of a single value for "range" is fundamentally flawed. Is it Tesla's fault that pe…

Does your Tesla really account for the wind along your route?

Yes.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#132

Post by bryanlarsen »

abduhl wrote: post #123
kjksf wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an anecdote, it's physics. EPA created a repeatable test where the car runs at a certain speeds, most likely without wind resistance. If you drive faster, the car will use more energy per mile therefore will have lower range than the EPA estimate. If you drive slower, they car will use less energy per mile therefore will have higher range than the EPA estimate. If there's head or side wind, the car will use…

And yet, data from 3300 drivers disagrees with your physics. What’s more likely: the data is wrong or the model is flawed?

3300 drivers did 30km/h tests?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#133

Post by bryanlarsen »

abduhl wrote: post #117
Delphiki wrote: post #91

Anecdata, but a few weeks ago I drove from LA to SF in my 2018 Model 3 (long range, single motor). It has a 75 kWh battery pack, my drive was 417 miles, and I drove 70 mph for probably 90-95% of the trip. I used a total of 95 kWh, which equates to ~329 miles on a full charge (100-0%). My efficiency was 226 Wh/mi. There are absolutely other times when I'll get substantially less range, but it's understandably when I'm…

My iPhone can send me alerts that I’m going to be late to work based on its tracking of my daily commute and you’re telling me that a machine that is constantly connected to a GPS network, sending data back to home base, and (almost?) capable of driving itself has “no way” of “magically knowing where you’re driving” unless you tell it? If only they could use some of that data and processing power to back out someone’…

That's exactly what the Tesla does. When I get into the car at 8AM, the car assumes I want to drive to my partner's workplace, and gives me directions to get there, taking into account current traffic and weather conditions, and a reliable estimate of what the battery will be when I get there.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#134

Post by GuB-42 »

Sodman wrote: post #105

The issue is that the number displayed on the dash can be toggled between "% battery remaining" or "miles remaining". The "Miles remaining" is actually "EPA rated miles x % battery remaining", and NOT "miles remaining based on last 10 miles driven, or current navigation destination". If they removed the 'Miles remaining' number and only showed a percentage, you would end up having to do the exact same conversion in y…

I don't know how it is done with EVs but my gas car usually underestimates my range despite me burning more fuel than what's written on the brochure.

It is common sense to take conservative estimates when you are missing data. The range indicator on the dashboard is a "will I make it" indicator. To help me decide if I need to plan a refuel/recharge. I don't want a best case scenario, not even an average, I want something like a 90 percentile.

In good conditions, the "enhanced" estimate (with nav) should be more than the baseline, as some of conservative estimates can now be replaced with more accurate data.

Good thing Tesla is not doing airplanes.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#135

Post by xboxnolifes »

nsenifty wrote: post #63
TheRealSteel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you say nobody cares about city range? That's all I care about.

Because people don't tend to drive non-stop for hundreds of miles at cities (except perhaps taxis)? You also always have a charger nearby.

But the range is calculated based on the energy efficiency, and all drivers (should) care about that number, since that's the cost.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#136

Post by frumper »

goalonetwo wrote: post #68

I always found it interesting that almost every EV in real-life exceeds their EPA range, while Tesla in real-life cannot even get close. I would not be surprised that Tesla over-optimized everything with the EPA test as an utility function. (reminds anyone of the VW scandal?) https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/

Did you read the link? 12/37 exceed their range and Porsche is half those. Remove 1 very high end maker and you're at 6/31 exceed. Not exactly "almost everyone"

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#137

Post by mgarfias »

jondwillis wrote: post #125
Rebelgecko wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't the car know the current temperature (or at least the battery temperature), whether or not the AC is on, etc? Other EVs take those into account regardless of whether or not something is plugged into navigation.

Personally I just toggle to only show the percentage and ignore the battery range estimate. When on longer trips, the nav estimate is usually spot on, or at worst a couple of % off due to my not-predictable driving behavior.

Same regarding percentage. But anecdote: just drove 135mi from my home to bend Oregon. Left at 90% soc, and arrived at 34%.

If my gas vehicle had that kinda range (my old pickup had this kind of range), I’d be annoyed.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#138

Post by haswell »

A lot of the comments here are focusing on Tesla defaulting to the EPA range, and that there are a lot of factors involved. This isn't the whole story. From the linked lawsuit text:

> Tesla developed algorithms for estimating the range of its electric vehicles, which would display to drivers “rosy” projections for the distance the vehicle could travel on a full battery. However, once the battery reached 50% capacity, the algorithm would change and begin showing the driver more realistic projections. This would cause the estimated range of the vehicle to fluctuate drastically from that point.

According to the lawsuit, this was something Musk asked for:

> The decision to include these algorithms to present inflated range estimates came directly from Tesla’s chief executive officer, Elon Musk. As the Reuters report indicates, “Elon [and Tesla] wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged....When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good."

Hard coding a range algorithm to make new customers "feel good" is pretty on brand for Elon. When coupled with the establishment of a dedicated "Diversion Team" to cancel service appointments from complaining customers (because they already knew nothing could be "fixed"), this is all pretty scummy and lends legitimacy to the lawsuit IMO.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#139

Post by lolsal »

I feel like I have a mild case of schadenfreude for all of these Tesla mental gymnastics. All of this is one of the reason I am absolutely not an early adopter of technology. I am looking forward to when EVs are equitable range, quick charging and ubiquitous fueling stations comparable to gas guzzlers. I never have to think about things like whether or not it is cold, I’m going up hills, or any of this other stuff. I just drive and when my tank gets low I pull into a gas station and fill up in a few minutes and move on with my day. The only time I have budgeted my gas on a trip is through long expanses of desert driving where stations are far apart.

These are not mental trade offs I’m willing to make. I owe a debt to the early adopters who sacrifice their sanity for alpha/beta testing this kind of tech. A solemn and respectful nod from me to those that have lost their lives due to this technology.

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