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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

131–140 of 343 posts

Re: At this company, we are family

#131
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, if you're not unionized companies are 100% allowed to fire you for whatever reason they like, such as talking about your salary, as long as the underlying reason does not run afoul of anti-discrimination law (which discussing salary won't) and they pay you full severance due to it being a "termination without cause".

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...

That's the best part! They don't have to fire you with a reason, at-will employment means they can just fire you and you're going to have to prove in court it could only have been because you were talking about your salary. Good luck!

You just show up to the office, your fob doesn't work, and security walks out to inform you that you don't work here anymore and to expect an email from HR.

(Will a good company do this? No. Could they if they wanted to, and totally get away with it? You bet!)

Re: At this company, we are family

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often. Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.

So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.

It also creates demand even for low-skilled work, since there are more low-margin / seasonal businesses that are feasible under the easy-come-easy-go system.

Re: At this company, we are family

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a refreshing comment to read. HN and Reddit discussions about employment in the US is often just a dumpster fire of "America bad", half-baked theories and observations from the perspective of the employee, where US workers have no rights and would be rioting in the streets if we hadn't been brainwashed by corporate media. Here on earth, what you wrote is much closer to the truth. The American economy is awash…

> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

>What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

From personal experience:

1. Less employment opportunities due to no VC funding, and risk averse mentality of entrepreneurs meaning next to no big EU SW product companies. That's why the best paying jobs in EU tech scene are mostly US companies, which also tend to be clustered in only a few cities in the EU, where housing is now a major issue.

2. Employment and tax laws. 100% cross-country employment across the EU is still not a thing, as every government wants taxes be paid in their country, so they have the laws and bureaucracy in place to make sure jobs and tax revenue don't leave their country, so living in a country while being employed in another is incredibly rare as an employee and not a B-2-B contractor.

3. The big one: Language barriers and bureaucracy differing from country to country means huge friction and risk when moving to a country you're not familiar with, along with the added overhead of learning a new language on top of having a full time job plus the challenge of building new social circles with a different language and culture. I've seen many people leave a country due to the culture shock, language barrier and isolation that lead to, despite them being friendly people and productive workers.

This might even be a fun challenge to deal with when you're young and single, but when you have a spouse and maybe even a child, things get even more complicated fast when it comes to immigration, finding a house or a job, especially if your spouse doesn't work in tech or any other career where English is normalized at work, or even needs their credentials translated and locally equivalated by the authorities to be eligible for employment.

I've met many expat couples where one works in tech and their non-tech spouse has been unemployed for months/years due to their education, skills and experience not being recognized in the new country. Some EU countries really love bureaucracy, credentials, and don't tolerate you not speaking the local language.

A friend of mine got laid off as part of his company going bankrupt with his last two wages going unpaid. The bureaucracy, letter bombardment and appointments in dealing with the authorities to try to recoup those two months wages, all having to be done in German, a foreign language to him(and me), makes the experience completely exhausting and I can feel he just wants to give up on those unpaid wages.

Imagine someone from Ohio having to learn a new language when moving to California and then another language when moving to New York. Not having to deal with bureaucracy in a foreign language for every state is a huge asset for the US and a weakness of the EU labor mobility. The fix could be easy, mandate English as a second language for bureaucracy in every EU country, but I can name a few countries (not the Northern ones) where I know they'd rather see the world burn than adopt English. It's one of the reason why the UK and Ireland are the top destinations for EU migration, at least that was the case for UK before Brexit.

4. Racism, xenofobia, discrimination and glass ceilings from the locals, when you come from the "wrong" country, have a "wrong" sounding name or the "wrong" skin color.

Re: At this company, we are family

#134
Companies with these terms in job postings are usually a red flag, but don’t be too judgmental:

>We are family!

No boundaries, underpaid, nepotism, etc.

>Fast paced working environment!

Mostly toxic environment.

>Attention to details!

“Big boss” will scream at you for silly things.

>Will require working overtime if needed!

Self explanatory.

>Fun loving, company culture activities, etc.

Your typical kindergarten office activities, you can’t refuse either.

I will also add this but not always the case

>open office style

Yeah, nope!

Re: At this company, we are family

#136

This is well written and I agree that family is a very imperfect analogy for a working relationship. At the same time, some work situations are more or less family-like and it still pays to look for the "more." I've been lucky that 4 companies I've worked at in my life so far have been very "employee forward" - creating scenarios of employee growth and engagement (vs putting employees in the seat of powerless cogs).…

> "Family" doesn't mean employing you past the point it makes sense Actually family does mean that, literally. It makes absolutely no sense to use this term in a business context.

Apologies if I didn't make this super clear.

I agree that the "family" metaphor breaks down around termination of employment (whether initiated by employee or employer)

What I was trying to say in the line you quoted, that IN THE WORK CONTEXT nobody uses family to imply permanent employment - it's strictly about how you are with each other while there. Which is still a big deal.

Re: At this company, we are family

#137

Actually, having integrity usually means being clear with people about budgetary decisions. The manipulative games just makes a firm look like its run by a cult of cons. Talent cutbacks are a loss of invested resources, and signals a failure to predict market trends. Sure it can also bump a laggard stock short-term, but ultimately signals other internal structural issues. Good luck, =)

I'm sure the same-y ness of the language everyone uses is the result of years of academic study in to how to frame things in a way that minimizes the immediate anger in the aggrieved population to minimize things like Going Postal, or sabotage. Of course they don't care about your feelings. As soon as someone is laid off they become a tremendous liability until they are out the door.

Re: At this company, we are family

#138
post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

[deleted]

Re: At this company, we are family

#139
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.

There are places like HK and Singapore where firing is super easy, yet the software industry in those places still pales to USA and even to Europe in some cases

The population is not comparable though. I guess that's why many people compare US to Europe, and not US to Sweden.

Re: At this company, we are family

#140
post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

The US mostly has dystopian workers rights laws
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