Live data from Hacker News

Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

podtail.com

131–140 of 280 posts

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#131

A perfect example with the recent changes at Twitter: > Most Twitter users barely tweet and don't care about followers - a "heavy user" tweets on average less than three times a week. So if someone is posting regularly enough to be willing to pay $8 a month for a blue tick, but has not built up a sizeable following organically, this is a very strong signal that the posts they are producing are no good. > It is exactl…

> enough to be willing to pay $8 a month you realize $8 a month is nothing to the majority of adults who would be in the "knowledge worker" category? a month? a couple of coffees is $10 and that's a day.

I don't really get what you're saying here; it's not about the affordability (but let's put that aside for a second), it's that the entire payment model is based on a theory that is demonstrably disproven; the GP post had some rough stats from an article which suggests that Twitter either grossly overestimates how its users use the platform, or completely misunderstands how people want to use Twitter.

That the "heavy user" threshold is 3 posts a week is surprising to me, and seems like a bad threshold I'm sure that actual Twitter data is likely more accurate and shows different numbers, but it's not really about the usage I guess, it's about the promise of more followers and engagement. But demonstrably this is not the case, and many persons who did buy the Blue Check complained they didn't see the increase in activity it was advertised that the Blue Check would give. The signal behind what a Blue Check means has been quite noisy for a very long time, even before Musk's take over, and the decisions post-Musk on what a Blue Check really means/does is very confusing and unclear.

Why would I pay $8 a month to maybe get some followers by being promoted when I could just spend a few hundred USD once and just buy followers from some follower farm, which is arguably a better signal of "hey, this person is worth following?" as opposed to the Blue Check? It doesn't matter if it's just a "couple of coffees", why pay for something that arguably provides 0 benefit for me?

Twitter should not have tried to sell identify validation as a major marketable service; they already try to validate your identity even without it, and it doesn't seem to benefit anyone, not even Twitter.

Game companies figured out how to monetize useless things with cosmetics and such, and if Twitter wanted to monetize heavily, they should have just done that. Fancier reactions, more edits and stupid stuff for the changeable usernames, etc. The idea that they can somehow sell the user attention is a folly; yes, they gate and can control the feeds, but the users always have the option of just not following or even just not looking. It's a resource Twitter _never_ really had control over; they might as well have been selling ocean wranglers, offering that someone will beat the tide with whips for you if the ocean pisses you off for some reason; it's about the same effectualness, and equally useless service.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#132
The problem is, essentially, all of the wealth and power is concentrated inside of venture capitalists and rich stock holders. These are people who invest in a product without actually using or caring about the product, so it leads to perverse incentives to infinitely grow or corner a market at all costs.

Family owned businesses, employee owned businesses, privately owned businesses etc all manage to better avoid this problem because they don't have to listen to outside voices telling them grow or die.

It's not enough to be profitable and successful, but also you need to siphon as much value out of consumers as you can so you can pass along the money to these vultures. Then once the company has picked everything dry, they write it off as a failure and move on.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#133
post #88

A perfect example with the recent changes at Twitter: > Most Twitter users barely tweet and don't care about followers - a "heavy user" tweets on average less than three times a week. So if someone is posting regularly enough to be willing to pay $8 a month for a blue tick, but has not built up a sizeable following organically, this is a very strong signal that the posts they are producing are no good. > It is exactl…

Garbage "analysis". Heavy users I follow tweet more than 3 times a day. > The problem wasn't a biased liberal algorithm, it was that their tweets are no good. No, it was a biased algo that's still being removed (as recently as 2-3 weeks ago they discovered another throttle which was impacting many users, including Elon). The main problem is that all centralized platforms have to deal with government-mandated censorsh…

This is a pretty good example of what is called kettle logic:

1. The analysis is wrong

2. The analysis is correct, but it is the algorithms fault.

3. The analysis is correct, but actually its really state censorship that is culprit here!

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#135
post #63
post #51

The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. This seems to be universally true, and when it becomes apparent that advertising doesn't work and isn't profitable, dark patterns are the best that you can hope for. Short of a company having the internal need for a generally useful distributed communications platform, as well as a willingness to release it relatively freely, I struggle to see how t…

> The need to have a for profit platform leads to perverse incentives. Only because, despite their immense importance, those platforms are essentially unregulated. Imagine water suppliers were unregulated. There would also be "perverse incentives", such as doctors paying them to add poison to the water so they get more patients and can make more money. But nothing like that ever happens, because there are rules such…

> There would also be "perverse incentives", such as doctors paying them to add poison to the water so they get more patients and can make more money.

This is why anything recommended by a for-profit dentist is the opposite of what you should probably buy.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#136
post #8

There is a possibly more general phenomenon where a brand gets good reputation and then begins cutting cost and people will still buy at the high price. I don't know if that one has a name or if it's the same concept as enshittification.

Economies of scale?

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still amazed they went with the $8-for-attention model. Everyone _already knows_ this doesn't work well; the dating site industry has been trying to make it work for literally decades. It's also kind of a Pandora's box; even if they removed the attention boost, the taint is already there, and people will be suspicious of bluetick replies forever.

They get also other features like longer tweets and editing.

Sure, and if they'd kept it to that, maybe it could have been a reasonable niche feature, though it would always be niche. As it is, I think it likely has negative value to most people.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#138
post #44

I've been thinking about how enshittification, venture capital, shareholders and the life cycle of a company are in some ways related. Any company that has external investors is bound to go through this cycle of - building a great product - taking in external funding money - growing and then either being acquired or going public (or more commonly shutting down) - then all the head scratching decision making starts It…

I think the issue could be rooted in recent monetary policy rather than an inhrenent feature of the market itself. Artificially low interest rate environments lead to a lot of money in the hands of investors, which due to inflation slowly loses purchasing power over time. However, with large reserves, they can easily afford to prop up a business model which persistantly spends more money on bringing "free" features t…

Just don't understand how one could be convinced these days of the fundamental conceit that even a properly profitable company is necessarily going to provide good things for people downstream, or for society in general. What is the argument for that in general again?

Because to me, if your not Twitter, your Wal Mart or Raytheon or BoA. If your not shittifying a platform you are pushing out small businesses from every town, price gouging government contracts for missiles, fooling elderly people with complicated financial instruments.

I just can't really put together any argument at all, if am being honest, to justify the idea that companies with a self interest in profit will reliably help people or the world. It just does not at all feel rational, its like everyone in the world is dreaming.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#139

A perfect example with the recent changes at Twitter: > Most Twitter users barely tweet and don't care about followers - a "heavy user" tweets on average less than three times a week. So if someone is posting regularly enough to be willing to pay $8 a month for a blue tick, but has not built up a sizeable following organically, this is a very strong signal that the posts they are producing are no good. > It is exactl…

> enough to be willing to pay $8 a month you realize $8 a month is nothing to the majority of adults who would be in the "knowledge worker" category? a month? a couple of coffees is $10 and that's a day.

> a couple of coffees is $10 and that's a day.

Please cut that. Everyone wants 'a couple of coffees' and it adds up even for SV techbros.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enough to be willing to pay $8 a month you realize $8 a month is nothing to the majority of adults who would be in the "knowledge worker" category? a month? a couple of coffees is $10 and that's a day.

This is true only in a handful of places, for a handful of people. $8 a month is pretty much the monthly cost of a cellphone plan across Europe. One could also get Spotify, or Netflix, at the same price point. Comparatively speaking, paying $8 to have unlimited access to generally low quality content, at the same price point where other platforms offer actual good content, is a waste.

I don't get the $8/month. If you would pay for verification, that would be a one time payment. If the creators would be payed, then this might be fine, but they aren't. So it is only a fee to use the infrastructure.

You get a decent VPS for 8€/month, that has more computing power and bandwidth and storage that one person can use per month compared to what they would use on their systems for just streaming some videos and getting some messages.

Sure I don't calculate here the cost for development and maintenance, but this cost is mostly constant with numbers of active users.

Post reply on HN