Learning needs to be effortful to be effective • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#131

Post by mmcnickle » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 3:39 PM UTC

zoogeny wrote: post #123

ethanbond wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried this with AI with a topic you are well versed in? I am very optimistic AIs will help people feel they have some sort of understanding but far less optimistic they’ll actually help build it. They’ll try to coerce any of your (or the model’s) mistakes into the correct answer out of politeness, and when you make a mistake it has zero model of the model you used to produce such a mistake, so it has no idea…

It sounds like you are doing something different than what I am suggesting. I am not quizzing the AI looking to determine how well the AI knows the subject. I am using the AI as if it doesn't know the subject at all. I try to explain a subject to the AI as if I am trying to teach a friend who has no knowledge on the subject. Then I am judging how well I can communicate the idea. In many cases as soon as I try to expl…

I was intrigued by this idea and decided to give it a go on a subject I have only cursory knowledge of. The conversation is here (https://chat.openai.com/share/50fe7120-a4eb-4c01-80bc-43d8f7...)

You're correct that it's an exercise in introspection, rather than relying on the AI's own knowledge. It was clear to me when trying to write explanations to its questions where my understanding was starting to get fuzzy and hand wavy.

A nice bonus was to get it produce a scorecard of correct, nearly correct and incorrect explanations. I could see these as a good jumping off point for me to do more learning/research. Though I suspect the AI would be less accurate at this in a more niche topic than I chose (refrigeration).

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#132

Post by sowbug » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 3:39 PM UTC

ouraf wrote: post #114

An old professor that specialized in helping students prepare to university or civil servant tests used to say that if you want to understand a subject, you need to do two things about it: - Make some kind of logical scheme to help with disambiguation (things like which legal process comes first, of the Socrates-Plato-Aristotle order of philosophers and ideas) - Write the long form of the subject everything by hand.…

I have lots of smart friends, but one in particular is leaps and bounds smarter than all of us. I've spent years observing why that is. Your first point resonates with my observation.

My friend seems to operate with a strong mental scaffolding that allows him to quickly absorb new information -- you can almost see his brain saying "this goes here, that goes there" as you speak to him. This scaffolding also plainly exposes holes in knowledge, which makes him an incredible conversation partner when you're talking about a technical topic -- "you mentioned A, B, and D. Seems like there should also be a C. What happened to that?"

I've known this guy for a long time, and you can imagine that his scaffolding only grows stronger over time, so that it's very rare to discuss a topic with him where he's completely adrift. It helps that he doesn't have the personality of a know-it-all; even if he is a master of a topic, he has an uncanny ability to uncover the thing you know that he doesn't, which makes conversation with him enjoyable rather than intimidating.

Two final points.

One, his memory is not notably better than anyone else's. He forgets conversations and situations as much as anyone else, but he definitely remembers when he's filled a hole in his scaffolding.

Two, his mental scaffolding is very conventional. By that, I mean he rarely has a weird way of thinking about things that makes sense to him but to nobody else. So when he asks a question, it's almost always the same deep question that other experts in a field have been working on, rather than a strange take. While this seems like a liability, it means that his conversations with experts tend to get to the important parts very quickly, rather than wasting half an hour establishing a common lexicon. Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect, and the conventionality of his scaffolding is a consequence of the vast amount of knowledge he's learned and needed to reconcile, rather than the reverse.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#133

Post by zoogeny » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

mmcnickle wrote: post #131

zoogeny wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are doing something different than what I am suggesting. I am not quizzing the AI looking to determine how well the AI knows the subject. I am using the AI as if it doesn't know the subject at all. I try to explain a subject to the AI as if I am trying to teach a friend who has no knowledge on the subject. Then I am judging how well I can communicate the idea. In many cases as soon as I try to expl…

I was intrigued by this idea and decided to give it a go on a subject I have only cursory knowledge of. The conversation is here ( https://chat.openai.com/share/50fe7120-a4eb-4c01-80bc-43d8f7... ) You're correct that it's an exercise in introspection, rather than relying on the AI's own knowledge. It was clear to me when trying to write explanations to its questions where my understanding was starting to get fuzzy an…

That is an interesting conversation. I like that you had the chat bot follow up with questions forcing you to dig deeper. The summary at the end is a good idea as well.

I've been asking the chatbot to point out my assumptions and to point out weaknesses or errors in my reasoning. That has been pretty useful in uncovering aspects of my thought that aren't as foundational or coherent/consistent as I expected. It also doesn't require the AI to be an expert in order to give me feedback, it just points out unchallenged assertions and errors in logic.

I think this is a potentially powerful use for AIs. They can patiently and politely nitpick and point out subtle errors in our thinking process, providing unbiased critical feedback. That is almost as valuable as having them be perfect oracles that can answer any possible question.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#134

Post by ramblerman » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 4:25 PM UTC

skribanto wrote: post #17

mighmi wrote: post #7

As a child, I was able to simply read through things (history books, forum discussions about motors and cars, wiki.c2.com...) barely understanding them - but half way words would begin making sense. I could then reread the same things with understanding and keep reading through until bored - which seemingly implied understanding. Nowadays, I need comprehensible input the whole time, hooks to actually understand what'…

According to Krashen, effort is not needed for comprehensible input to be effective. Rather, it is more likely that you are simply not consuming enough comprehensible input

Krashen is brought up a lot as a "magic bullet". But I think there are 3 big caveats to his work that often don't get brought up.

- The amount of comprehensible input needed is really huge. So much so that someone who has 10-20 hours a week to learn a language might be better using an active approach.

- I used to think that if you understood a language certainly you would also be able to speak it. But this just isn't true. Passive vocabulary and active vocabulary (not to mention sentence construction) are separate and need to be practiced individually.

- In my own experience I have been very successfull with comprehensible input when paired with being in the country or studying the language during the day. This allows me to solidify links from what I've heard and read with the real world. AFAIK, his studies had a similar setup, always including students who were studying the language and then did extra reading/watching on top of that.

There is a bit of a pipe dream, that you will just watch mangas all day at your level and suddenly come out fluent.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#135

Post by seventhtiger » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

hiisukun wrote: post #29

There is a field of education, that studies teaching and learning! In fact many of you who attended university and studied at a "school of computer science" would have been in a building next to a "school of education". This post is interesting, but it reads like a layperson (from a teaching point of view) coming up with some fairly good theories of learning (of which there are quite a few) and discussing how applyin…

I'm skeptical of how the results of the educational field apply to the individual.

They deal with very specific constraints because of classroom economy.

If your stated goal is to get every child in this room to read, then you're wildly out of alignment with the needs of the child who could be reading the classics by the end of the year.

Gifted and accelerated programs only alleviate the problem by a fixed amount by adding one additional more intense tier, which every child competes for to improve their university application profile.

Any person who tried to teach a child one to one for a short period of time learns how unfit school is. The only limit to their learning is the adult's energy and skill. While school is the product of several rounds of the lowest slowest denominator.

Kings and princes used to be taught by tutors they form long term relationships with. This is still the best way. School is the equivalent of feeding the masses dog food to keep them compliant.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#136

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

I don't know about that. I am objectively very capable and much of that wasn't hard or anything. I just poured a lot of knowledge in when I was young. I think I'll take the same approach with my kids: just pour a lot into their heads and they can form the models from the facts.

In fact, the only things that I have poor retention of is Algebraic Geometry because despite the amount of time and effort I spent on it I made no progress in intuition. Partly because I was attempting the "take notes" strategy for that class instead of my usual "high attention / no notes" strategy.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#137

Post by yterdy » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #135

hiisukun wrote: post #29

There is a field of education, that studies teaching and learning! In fact many of you who attended university and studied at a "school of computer science" would have been in a building next to a "school of education". This post is interesting, but it reads like a layperson (from a teaching point of view) coming up with some fairly good theories of learning (of which there are quite a few) and discussing how applyin…

I'm skeptical of how the results of the educational field apply to the individual. They deal with very specific constraints because of classroom economy. If your stated goal is to get every child in this room to read, then you're wildly out of alignment with the needs of the child who could be reading the classics by the end of the year. Gifted and accelerated programs only alleviate the problem by a fixed amount by…

This is not just for "elite" children, also. A good mentor-mentee relationship is how you get the best out of students in non-academic fields, too. It's why apprenticeship systems developed.

One of the earlier posts decried "constructivism" in research, but I don't know how you get around the fact that most students are not, even cannot even be allowed to reach their full potential in whatever way that applies to them, because society requires us to fill certain roles, which that potential may not apply to. Educational outcomes are socially-constructed; I'd even go so far as to say that this social need is more predictive than inborn potential and even effort.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#138

Post by ethanbond » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

mmcnickle wrote: post #131

zoogeny wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are doing something different than what I am suggesting. I am not quizzing the AI looking to determine how well the AI knows the subject. I am using the AI as if it doesn't know the subject at all. I try to explain a subject to the AI as if I am trying to teach a friend who has no knowledge on the subject. Then I am judging how well I can communicate the idea. In many cases as soon as I try to expl…

I was intrigued by this idea and decided to give it a go on a subject I have only cursory knowledge of. The conversation is here ( https://chat.openai.com/share/50fe7120-a4eb-4c01-80bc-43d8f7... ) You're correct that it's an exercise in introspection, rather than relying on the AI's own knowledge. It was clear to me when trying to write explanations to its questions where my understanding was starting to get fuzzy an…

Wow, that is awesome. Kudos to you and @zoogeny's approach. This seems like a much better way to use this educationally than what I was attempting!

Thank you for sharing. It helps that refrigeration has always sort of blown my mind, so this was an interesting topic as well.

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#139

Post by galaxyLogic » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

bavell wrote: post #103

Alt4Alt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please expand on that. Is'nt Anki one of the most popular tools for using spaced repitition? By meaning spaced repetition is easier do you mean to refer to some other tools which makes it easy to implement and use?

Listening to your favorite new song everyday for a week is spaced repetition and very enjoyable, no pain whatsoever. You'll quickly learn the nuances of the song that you didn't pick up in your first few listens. Also a great way to memorize lyrics.

That's a good example of an exceptional case. It is a good result to know. But really the learning-science is concerned about how to make learning so enjoyable that you are willing to do it. However the case of learning your favorite tune does not help much with the general question of what techniques you should use when trying to learn something else than your favorite tune :-)

Re: Learning needs to be effortful to be effective

#140

Post by mmcnickle » Tue, Jul 04, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

zoogeny wrote: post #133

mmcnickle wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was intrigued by this idea and decided to give it a go on a subject I have only cursory knowledge of. The conversation is here ( https://chat.openai.com/share/50fe7120-a4eb-4c01-80bc-43d8f7... ) You're correct that it's an exercise in introspection, rather than relying on the AI's own knowledge. It was clear to me when trying to write explanations to its questions where my understanding was starting to get fuzzy an…

That is an interesting conversation. I like that you had the chat bot follow up with questions forcing you to dig deeper. The summary at the end is a good idea as well. I've been asking the chatbot to point out my assumptions and to point out weaknesses or errors in my reasoning. That has been pretty useful in uncovering aspects of my thought that aren't as foundational or coherent/consistent as I expected. It also d…

I like that idea of having it probe the reasoning as much as the content, I'll definitely add that to the mix next time I try this.