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San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

latimes.com

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Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#131

Post by somebody78978 »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #112
EatingWithForks wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hesitate to arrest passengers that can't override the taxi. There are knock-on effects that can't be remediated by suing a robo taxi company, such as loss of job, violation of parole, or simply not having any money to begin the suit to begin with. [I know that it's unlikely that someone wealthy enough to hire a robotaxi for a trip may not be wealthy enough to hire a lawyer, but you never know and it would be…

I understand your point, but I can see the reasoning to arrest the passengers. In summary, the robotaxi company's business model and how its cars work is none of the emergency service's business. It's a car, in the way, with people in it. If an ostensibly normal car were to block an emergency response, would its occupants be off the hook if they all denied having driven the vehicle to its current location, and said t…

So by your logic, if I order a human driven taxi, and the driver does something illegal, I should be arrested along with him? Obviously assumming I didn't threaten and/or bribe him to do that illegal action.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#132

Post by hamolton »

jeffbee wrote: post #34

These articles always conflate all industry participants but when you dig into it, it's always Cruise that is causing the problem. SFMTA's complaint to the state about Waymo cites 13 incidents in Appendix B involving Cruise cars. The very best thing Waymo could do is lobby the state government to establish strict rules so their own reputation doesn't get diluted by Cruise. There are a quarter million vehicle crashes…

After riding in both Cruise and Waymo cars in SF, I think that Waymo cars are so much more road-ready. While my Waymo rides all seemed pretty smooth albeit with a timid driver, my cruise rides featured extremely skittish behavior around other cars, missing several turns to avoid being around others, and stopping in odd places, especially for dropoff and pickup.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#133

Post by Kirby64 »

jeffbee wrote: post #113
c00lio wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't immediately loose your license for speeding, even in Switzerland. Afaik it'll be expensive until 20km/h over, only after that will the really nasty things like criminal prosecution and car impound start (for first-time offenders, repeat offenders are punished more harshly).

40km/h over in a built-up area in Switzerland is not only an automatic fine and loss of license, it is automatic jail time with no judicial discretion. This is the equivalent of 45MPH in a city, for the American readers.

Some states have "super speeder" punishments similar to this, with mandatory jail time if you're over a certain speed (>100mph usually) or just over a certain amount over the speed limit (double the limit, or something).

Either way, none of those address the new problem of robotaxis. If any normal human did this type of thing, you could go scream at them or honk your horn enough for them to figure it out. If it isn't programmed into the robotaxis logic it won't do anything as shown. Or possibly do the wrong thing.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#134

Post by Reubachi »

mint2 wrote: post #118

How do these companies not have a simulator built to help train cars for simulated non-standard scenarios? Have dogs, kids, fire trucks, caution tape etc and run them with 100k variations. And then do real world staged validation. Actually why are extensive real world mock scenarios not running 24/7? If a car does something bad, do mock scenarios around it. Please tell me they are doing these things because it’s craz…

Of course they are...I'm sure you've seen the dozens of marketing videos of tesla detection cameras/sensors stopping short for a kid chasing a ball into the street.

now, like anything else, does test/staging translate to production? Not even remotely. Automomous vehicle manufacturers claim to be in a monitoring/production phase to compare to their internal testing/staging. And over time we'll normalize Autonomous driving and the associated risks.

We used to drive all the nails in the world with a hammer precariously aiming at your own hand.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#135

Post by 411111111111111 »

ShakataGaNai wrote: post #86
Projectiboga wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time for Zero Tolerance, if one of these do it seize it, and levy the robotaxi company and whomever built it with Huge Fines. Not "oh that will just be another expense", make it that those fines pierce the corporate veil and get to the executives and the millionaire shareholders. And now that I think of it, if there are any passengers, arrest them. That way they can sue the RoboTaxi company too.

In general I agree with the general concept, Scale up standard punishments to be in line with corporations. * Robotaxi violates traffic laws like blocking a fire engine? Fine of $10,000 * Robotaxi drive into an active crime/fire scene? $100,000 fine * Robotaxi actively hinder emergency services (ex parking on a hose)? Confiscate the vehicle. Corporations are the same anywhere, until a problem becomes too expensive, t…

I don't think these actions take place enough times for your numbers to have any impact on the robo taxis. At that point it wouldn't even be a slap on the wrist.

You'd have to add at least 2-3 zeros before any action would be taken, and the action would likely be something else then what you are expecting. These things just don't happen often enough for this to ever be addressed without the original point of piercing the corporate veil and making management personally responsible for these crimes.

But at that point you'd likely still end up with the dynamic of people getting paid to become the fall guy

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#136

Post by EatingWithForks »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #112
EatingWithForks wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hesitate to arrest passengers that can't override the taxi. There are knock-on effects that can't be remediated by suing a robo taxi company, such as loss of job, violation of parole, or simply not having any money to begin the suit to begin with. [I know that it's unlikely that someone wealthy enough to hire a robotaxi for a trip may not be wealthy enough to hire a lawyer, but you never know and it would be…

I understand your point, but I can see the reasoning to arrest the passengers. In summary, the robotaxi company's business model and how its cars work is none of the emergency service's business. It's a car, in the way, with people in it. If an ostensibly normal car were to block an emergency response, would its occupants be off the hook if they all denied having driven the vehicle to its current location, and said t…

No, this is more akin to hiring an uber, the uber driver does something illegal and the cops arrest you for it with the idea that you can sue uber for the injustice. That's obviously wrongheaded.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#137

Post by rurp »

jeffbee wrote: post #34

These articles always conflate all industry participants but when you dig into it, it's always Cruise that is causing the problem. SFMTA's complaint to the state about Waymo cites 13 incidents in Appendix B involving Cruise cars. The very best thing Waymo could do is lobby the state government to establish strict rules so their own reputation doesn't get diluted by Cruise. There are a quarter million vehicle crashes…

> There are a quarter million vehicle crashes in the DataSF Fire Department Calls For Service. Self-driving cars will prevent these.

That's a bold claim. Do you have evidence to support it? I'm not talking about results from controlled or ideal driving conditions, I mean evidence showing that self driving will definitely be better at the conditions those quarter million accidents occur in.

Perhaps there's some research I'm unaware of but as far as I know the best we can say is that self driving might end up being safer for general usecase driving, but that there are wide disagreements about how likely that chance is.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#138

Post by ummonk »

jeffbee wrote: post #56
jb12 wrote: post #39

This past weekend in SF, I saw a driver slow and stop to reverse parallel park on Bush Street at Fillmore. An automated Cruise car stopped right behind him, blocking the driver from reversing into the parking spot. The guy got out to yell at the driver to back up, but then saw that it was driverless. He drove off, and someone else got the spot.

Did they signal? This has happened to me many times with humans driving right up on my bumper even while I signal and am in reverse gear.

Human drivers usually back up or go around when that happens though.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#139

Post by maerF0x0 »

srj wrote: post #109
maerF0x0 wrote: post #50

Seems to me a simple regulation like a fire department access in buildings could solve this. eg1: What about a direct line to a 24/7 operations center with cruise? eg2: Or how about a proximal access console controller that allows them to take control of the the vehicle (with occupants consent if occupied) . This neednt be a total ban on AVs

The time it would take to pull out a phone and call a Cruise support line is already too long.

first of all it'd be a dedicated emergency line, like 911 to Operations center direct.

Second of all, if that is not fast enough, then humans are insufficient too. You cant just magically get people to act (a lot of the time they'll do the wrong thing and fail to even recognize what situation they're in at the moment) Notice how bumper to bumper traffic is pretty bad for EMS, people do not know how to react.

Re: San Francisco fire chief fed up with robotaxis that mess with her firetrucks

#140

Post by kakuri »

jeffbee wrote: post #34

These articles always conflate all industry participants but when you dig into it, it's always Cruise that is causing the problem. SFMTA's complaint to the state about Waymo cites 13 incidents in Appendix B involving Cruise cars. The very best thing Waymo could do is lobby the state government to establish strict rules so their own reputation doesn't get diluted by Cruise. There are a quarter million vehicle crashes…

I have seen several Waymo cars stopped for no good reason or blocking the street while very slowly trying to figure out what to do.
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