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240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

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Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#131

Post by Sakos »

eternityforest wrote: post #122
Sakos wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to my technician friends, yes. Apparently on most devices, USB-C ports are much less robustly attached than USB-A and are more prone to failure. Just because it's fine on Macs doesn't mean it's fine everywhere else.

I haven't seen a failed port yet. I see loads of failed MicroUSB though.

On newer devices or devices that have been in use for over a decade? It's comparing apples and oranges, since USB-C is just now becoming ubiquitous. I've already seen a lot of issues around build quality and longevity (outside of Macs). It's one of the more common issues I see on forums with more recent laptops nowadays.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#132

Post by bsder »

crote wrote: post #104
jaywalk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USB-PD requires extra circuitry that barrel jacks don't. I doubt we'll see the end of barrel jacks.

Technically yes, but not really. The only requirement is two $0.001 resistors on the CC lines, giving you 500mA @ 5V. You can get up to 3A @ 5V simply by measuring the voltage the charger puts on the CC lines, so that can be done in $0.05 in parts. Getting the full 5A @ 20V experience is possible with a chip costing less than $0.50, so even that isn't too expensive.

Reference, please? Everything I see that does standalone UFP (upstream facing port) PD winds up costing a LOT more than that.

The Cypress/Infineon chip that does this is around $2 and requires quite a bit of external circuitry: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/infineon-technolo...

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#133

Post by zbrozek »

nfriedly wrote: post #80
zbrozek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I looked at the comms protocol, it seemed possible to request up to 10 amps. I'm not sure there's a physical spec for a matching cable, but there's also no way for a cable to communicate its current limitations.

> there's also no way for a cable to communicate its current limitations I don't think that's quite right. USB-C cables that support >60W (>3A @ 20V) must have an e-mark, which is a small chip embedded in the cable that identifies it as being able to support specific levels of power, such as 5A @ 20V for 100W or 5A @ 48V for 240W. Spec-compliant chargers won't supply more than 60W unless the cable has the appropriate…

Good to know, thanks! I was interested in the comms side and not the cable side since I was considering building a widget that didn't use USB-C as the physical layer but did use PD for power negotiation.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#134

Post by zbrozek »

lloeki wrote: post #62
zbrozek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I looked at the comms protocol, it seemed possible to request up to 10 amps. I'm not sure there's a physical spec for a matching cable, but there's also no way for a cable to communicate its current limitations.

Nothing prevents anyone to use the USB-PD protocol over a different cable and plug (and maybe some do but we don't know it) rated for 10A. It's just so much more practical both for users and when designing to just use off the shelf USB-C (which AIUI has its design rated for 5A) as the physical part.

Thanks! That's exactly why I was looking into the comms side but didn't spend more than a couple moments on the cable side. I was considering building something that had board-to-board connected modules and used PD to negotiate the power between boards.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#136

Post by Reason077 »

_trampeltier wrote: post #130
Reason077 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”USB C is very fragile” Is it? I’ve been using USB-C Macs since 2017 and I’ve never had any broken ports, despite some significant abuses (cable trips, grime in the port, etc). A few worn out cables, and failed chargers, maybe… but no problems on the laptop itself.

On a clean table it might be not a problem, but if you work in an industrial environment or so, where the notebook maybe just is on a box or on the floor and next to heavy tools. Also if you move the notebook around while plugged in, I think with USB-C you really have to hold and support the cable.

> “if you move the notebook around while plugged in, I think with USB-C you really have to hold and support the cable.”

This was true on my 2017 MacBook Pro - the grip force was quite weak on the USB-C ports. But not so much on my M1 MacBook Air (2020), where the ports feel much tighter with more grip.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#137

Post by throwoutway »

thekombustor wrote: post #40
Springtime wrote: post #28

Will be interested to see if AllThingsOnePlace reviews it, as have been following their particularly in-depth power adapter reviews and their last review[1] of a Framework charger (a 60W model) showed it performed well both in efficiency and other metrics though not the highest performer or value in its wattage range. Wouldn't ordinarily mention a Youtube channel on HN but felt their detailed testing, comparisons and…

These are exactly the kinds of channels we need more of on YT, I'm glad someone else has also found his channel. I eagerly await more reviews of other USB-C PD chargers, e.g the 65W Lenovo ones you can get for pennies on ebay.

Does anyone review USB-C outlets? I want a high watt one, but I'm worried about whether they are truly UL listed and won't burn my place down

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#138

Post by parineum »

ilyt wrote: post #44
parineum wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USB-C solves the arcing problem in a similar way that CCS (EV chargers) does. It doesn't engage the high voltage pins until a low voltage pilot makes contact. I'm not sure exactly how USB solves that for disconnecting (CCS locks the connector in) but I imagine the pilot would disconnect first and that would kill the PD pins during disconnect.

> but I imagine the pilot would disconnect first and that would kill the PD pins during disconnect. Don't imagine, just look at USB-C socket. So the answer is "not really", at least I didn't noticed pins for the power being longer

The 240W cables have a different spec so that's not indicative of what you'll see for 48v.
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