Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think dogs and pigs who are aware of what’s about to happen don’t?
That the point, the author can’t have it both ways.
Peter Singer on utilitarianism, influence, and controversial ideas
131–134 of 134 posts
Re: Peter Singer on utilitarianism, influence, and controversial ideas
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That's a misreading of the paper and a misrepresentation of the position that Singer holds It's not. However, utilitarians are inevitably compelled to argue that it is, because their efficacy depends on it. This amounts to gaslighting about plainly obvious positions they have committed to paper, which is an act of violence in and of itself. > While it may seem that utilitarians should engage in norm-breaking instru…
I quoted you claiming "It is very much an argument in favor of a fundamentally untrustworthy and conspiratorial mindset". Nothing in your reply now, nor in any of your other comments, supports that claim. Your claim does not follow from the fact that in rare, exceptional cases rule-breaking, perhaps in secret, is what an agent has most reason to do according to act utilitarianism, a well-known feature of the view. Th…
Singer's insistence that a utilitarian doctor is morally bound to kill a patient to save others is sufficient.
> Your claim does not follow from the fact that in rare, exceptional cases rule-breaking, perhaps in secret
No perhaps about it, secrecy is part that can only really be discarded in non-iterated settings, in the endgame.
> but such virtues, once habitualized
Of course you know that "habit", contextualized in the moral framework where habitual action is merely instrumental too, is a categorically weaker insurance against rule-breaking than habit plus belief in the principle according to which those habitual decisions are correct generally.
> Do you possess any empirical evidence showing that real world utilitarian adherents are less upholding of everyday norms against lying, stealing, and so on?
Yes, for example the effective altruism movement is comprised of generic totalitarian scum, which is well reflected in their consensus position on AI safety. I notice you flinching from the example of SBF and his little club of Singerians too.
The problem of utilitarianism, however, lies precisely on the margins. It is rational for utilitarians to build up reputation and influence with charities and such nonsense, to then expend it on a massive power-grab. SBF's only fault is that he moved to early, isn't it?
> You haven't described what alternative moral view you yourself adhere to.
Intuitive deontology.
> If the only way to prevent the end of the world and the death of everyone would be to secretly break some everyday rule once
Jaywalking isn't what the "pivotal act" theory entails, and your theory about total death is specious and motivated by the political benefits of such an act.
Moreover, if [you believed that] the only way to prevent the eternal suffering of everyone would be to secretly work towards the extinction of humanity, would you not work on it? A consistent utilitarian would.
> Would that warrant saying that your own view obligates you to have a "fundamentally untrustworthy and conspiratorial mindset"? If not, why not?
Normal people (ie not effective altruists/utilitarians) have ad hoc "decision theories". I am not an exception. Existence of a world is good qualitatively, not as an ultimate expression of the Singerian principle. I believe that lying is wrong qualitatively too, so for me, the logic of habitually being honest applies in the way it cannot apply to a utilitarian, even if you can design a hypothetical where I would have to agree that lying is justified. A world of utilitarians is not a morally good world; a surgeon should commit to losing more lives than otherwise possible in that scenario, because it would not befit a surgeon to kill patients; utilitarian calculations are invalid, so I do not engage in them.
In more contingent terms: habitual, as you put it, utilitarian reasoning leads to justification of your preferred policies via nonsense utility estimates. Proclaim "vulnerable world hypothesis", now anything you'd want is justified by saving the world, and you get to ape the respectable adult too.
It's risible.
Re: Peter Singer on utilitarianism, influence, and controversial ideas
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
I quoted you claiming "It is very much an argument in favor of a fundamentally untrustworthy and conspiratorial mindset". Nothing in your reply now, nor in any of your other comments, supports that claim. Your claim does not follow from the fact that in rare, exceptional cases rule-breaking, perhaps in secret, is what an agent has most reason to do according to act utilitarianism, a well-known feature of the view. Th…
> Nothing in your reply now, nor in any of your other comments, supports that claim Singer's insistence that a utilitarian doctor is morally bound to kill a patient to save others is sufficient. > Your claim does not follow from the fact that in rare, exceptional cases rule-breaking, perhaps in secret No perhaps about it, secrecy is part that can only really be discarded in non-iterated settings, in the endgame. > bu…
... in rare, exceptional cases which are extremely unlikely given the teamwork and papertrails of modern day health care systems, as others have already pointed out to you, but which you keep dropping. Once that context is added your claim (the one I quoted in my previous reply) does not follow.
> No perhaps about it, secrecy is part that can only really be discarded in non-iterated settings, in the endgame.
No idea what that means.
> Of course you know that "habit" ... is a categorically weaker insurance against rule-breaking than habit plus belief in the principle ...
Actually I don't know that. Do you have empirical evidence for it? Evidence with regard to moral views with norms in a multi level structure, like what act utilitarianism tends to have, compared to views with a single or fewer such levels?
> Yes, for example the effective altruism movement is comprised of generic totalitarian scum ...
I hear you reporting your contempt and your intuition. I'm waiting for supportive evidence, studies.
> SBF
A bad-behaving billionaire. But I don't know if his behaviour is worse on average than billionaire peers who hold other moral belief systems.
> Jaywalking isn't what the "pivotal act" theory entails, and your theory about total death is specious and motivated by the political benefits of such an act.
No idea what that means.
> I believe that lying is wrong qualitatively too, so for me, the logic of habitually being honest applies in the way it cannot apply to a utilitarian, even if you can design a hypothetical where I would have to agree that lying is justified.
What does "wrong qualitatively" mean and how does it differ from "wrong non-qualitatively" or "wrong" simpliciter? I so far don't see anything in the sentence that gets you out of the bind of the hypothetical I presented.
edit: It is clear that you contempt the "EA consensus position on AI safety". But it isn't clear what you think that position is nor what other position you think is better nor how you think that other position is reached from intuitive deontology or some other normative theory.
Re: Peter Singer on utilitarianism, influence, and controversial ideas
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re saying that it’s obvious infanticide is wrong. I’m pointing out that most humans ever have disagreed. Then you’re saying it’s obvious again and that it doesn’t need to be debated. Your “argument” is that the current moral fashions of your society are true and that this is obvious to all. At best this is an attempt at persuasion by “Everyone else is doing it and so should you.”
Again, the same thing can be said about slavery. In fact, if something is perceived as horrible by most people in current society, I think the burden is on you to explain why and when it is justified. (So far your only argument was that people in the old times did it, which is no argument at all.)