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Cloud, Why So Difficult?

winglang.io

131–140 of 158 posts

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know it doesn't? You've only looked at it from your use case So you didn’t see the rest of the paragraph that you snipped? “unless you’re something like Backblaze, DropBox or another company where your entire reason for existing is your infrastructure expertise.” > So your on-prem is slow does not equal all on-prem is bad? How fast can you spin up a dozen VMs? A message bus? A scalable database with read…

Without a cloud it would take longer. But, really how often do you need to do that and what % of users really need to? Also, once on the cloud some business management take so long to "approve" new expenses that in reality it may not really be feasible to do things fast enough for it to be a benefit. I've quite often seen the need for 5-10 meetings or 2-3 written documents to get approval for 10 new VMs for developer…

> But, really how often do you need to do that and what % of users really need to?

When testing something or you want to spin up your own isolated environment for yourself or for your team? Very often.

> Also, once on the cloud some business management take so long to "approve" new expenses that in reality it may not really be feasible to do things fast enough for it to be a benefit.

And that’s get back to my other point that when you do a “lift and shift”. If you don’t change your processes both IT and technical, you won’t see any benefit from the cloud and you will end up spending more.

There are so many ways that you can both give developers freedom and still have the necessary guardrails. I’m speaking about AWS because that’s the one I know best (and where I work). But I’m sure there are equivalent services on other providers.

For instance you can have a vending machine type of setup where you allow department heads to set up non prod accounts with organization controlled service control policies. You can use a Service Catalog approach where you surface Terraform or CloudFormation defined products where the users can only provision infrastructure defined by their administrators. But they can do it themselves.

Depending on which level of the organization I’m working with, I try to convince the IT department to give individual departments their own organizational unit to monitor and to embed someone from IT into their team - ie a “DevOps” philosophy.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#132
post #3

> It doesn't make sense that every time I want to execute code inside an AWS Lambda function, I have to understand that it needs to be bundled with tree-shaken dependencies, uploaded as a zip file to S3 and deployed through Terraform. Or that in order to be able to publish a message to SNS, my IAM policy must have a statement that allows the sns:Publish action on the topic's ARN. And does every developer need to unde…

It’s also weird not to know about terraform modules. There are a lot of things you _can_ configure because there are a lot of things people need to configure but if you’re using something like https://github.com/terraform-aws-modules/terraform-aws-lambd... it’s only a couple of lines of config for a Lambda.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#133
the core of aws is actually pretty good. it’s just wrapped in several layers of nutshells which aren’t needed except by the equally thick enterprise.

aws is also inescapably imperative. it’s how the api and everything behind the scenes work.

aws is gonna have a lot of nonsense best practices, both 1st and 3rd party, that you have to aggressively ignore.

if you can come to peace with these three truths, aws is great. i use it like this:

https://github.com/nathants/libaws

for those trying to improve, the best aws docs are currently the go sdk and gopls.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#134

The complexity of the cloud exists because the cloud vendors allows a user to do advanced things if the user understands how. Using AWS, GCP, and Azure as Infrastructure-as-a-Service (Iaas) means that there's no easy mode. If you want easy (or easier) mode, you'll have to use a Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS). The major cloud vendors might have problems with quirky designs and poor documentation, but beyond that is nece…

this is true, but doesn’t stop mistakes from being made or criticism from being useful.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#135

The complexity of the cloud exists because the cloud vendors allows a user to do advanced things if the user understands how. Using AWS, GCP, and Azure as Infrastructure-as-a-Service (Iaas) means that there's no easy mode. If you want easy (or easier) mode, you'll have to use a Platform-as-a-Service (PaaS). The major cloud vendors might have problems with quirky designs and poor documentation, but beyond that is nece…

The "free lunch" was sold in a form of the hybrid cloud orchestrator. These pretended to make all clouds look the same, but were more shallow layers of abstraction that didn't add much value.

to be fair it was a brilliant play. my sympathies go out to all those who ended up holding the bag.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#136

This thought hits home for me: > When I started programming, I used Borland C++. It used to take about 100ms to compile and run a program on an IBM PC AT machine (TURBO ON). An average iteration cycle in the cloud takes minutes. Minutes! Sometimes dozens of minutes! I'm a fast-feedback fan myself, and my weapons of choice in refuge from a dark decade of c++ are the Python notebook and Clojure REPL. With that as it is…

stop using terraform et al, start using boto3 from your python notebook.

patching a lambda zip takes seconds. it’s done before you can alt tab and curl.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> simplified, vendor agnostic I just don't see this being true. Being "cloud agnostic" likely means it's an incredibly leaky abstraction where at the first sign of trouble, you're going to have to understand winglang + the specific provider API. Any IaC product requires you intimiately understand what it's actually doing if you care about security and performance. Just because it's a managed service doesn't mean you…

Hey, I understand where you're coming from, but I still think there is room abstraction when done right. I wrote about it here: https://docs.winglang.io/faq/why-cloud-abstraction

have you considered related but distinct products for each cloud? like flavors of soda from the same company.

many users are single cloud, unless your primary target is multi cloud enterprise.

there is benefit to multi cloud facade, but i’m not sure it’s worth the cost.

regardless, cool stuff!

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#138
post #59

The annoying thing about using cloud infra is finding that all your skills and knowledge have to be relearned N times over for N different cloud vendors for a huge array of their services, mostly to do basic things that you already know how to do anyway in traditional environments. The fact they all offer similar but subtly different versions of every type of product and that cross platform tools like Terraform etc h…

this.

don’t learn gcp if you know aws. don’t learn android if you know iphone. don’t learn ruby if you know python.

instead use that time to building interesting things. these tools are much more similar than different, and their differences are inconsequential.

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#139

The difficulty with cloud is Joel's rule: "All non-trivial abstractions are leaky" they just abstract complexity and eventually the abstraction breaks and you actually need to know some amount of linux, networking, security, or distributed system engineering to fix it. The easiest way to not get bitten by this is to avoid the abstractions and keep it simple as long as possible. Most apps can probably do fine with a s…

learning cloud is not necessarily using cloud for all things.

cloud adds capability to any engineer.

if i’m on coffeeshop wifi with my low power laptop, and i need to do something intense like compile linux, i’m sol.

unless i know aws. then i can open a new terminal, spin up a massive spot instance for 19.27 minutes, get that done, then self destruct[1].

being able to test lambda to s3 io, or ec2 to s3 io, with the same ease one uses grep and sed, is for great good. also it’s fun.

1. https://github.com/nathants/mighty-snitch/blob/master/kernel...

Re: Cloud, Why So Difficult?

#140
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll never match the price, but if you use some small rds and ec2 instances you wont be paying much. Less if you use lambda and api gateway. Moving lamp stacks is a piece of cake. If you don't want to do it you could find a freelancer pretty easily.

>Less if you use lambda and api gateway. There's the slippery slope into vendor lock-in via combinatorial explosion of complexity

what op means is that for low traffic or no traffic services, lambda scales to zero where ec2 and rds do not.

scale to zero is very good when zero usage is regularly reached.

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