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SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

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Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When these games came out, the PC game market was smaller with less competition. Programmers and game makers drew from what they grew up with which was table top board games. That's why the instruction manuals were thick (like a DnD manual), the rules were incredibly complex, and the learning curves were steep. These games were a product of their time and you definitely do have an age based selection bias!

I don’t remember a thick manual for red alert. Or much of a manual at all.

There was definitely a manual, I remember that. I don't think it was huge though, but I remember reading it through on a car ride home (something like ~3 hours) so probably was around 100 pages.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#132
post #3

I think SimCity 4 is the best city simulator game. Cities Skylines is an excellent city painter ; however.

All of these city games need to simulate bureaucracy. For example, if trying to demolish an apartment, you need to solicit 400 approvals and gain local support before doing so. Or to build to a railway you need to buy out all of the land and organize environmental studies for every square foot of it before laying track.

While this would be more realistic the majority of players would stop playing the game. I would argue this is just like you not having to build each street in a 3d game by yourself you also don't need to fill out every form, etc. by yourself. I just image you have a lot of employees doing that for you.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#133
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an age-based bias. These games couldn't expand on graphics, so they expanded on the logic of the game. That made them interesting. Very few games do that today (EU4, a favorite of mine, for example) but the trend now is to confuse the user with graphics while giving really little in term of content.

High content, big budget, games still exist, e.g. Elden Ring + Zelda (as someone mentioned) are two recent releases. There's also plenty of sim games in the indie market, Factorio, Banished, Frostpunk. Then things that are close to the market like They Are Billions, Kenshi, etc. to name a few I've personally had time to play. Kenshi is a bit rough around the edges, but absolutely brilliant in terms of sandbox play. T…

The difference with sim/4X/any genre that's fallen outside of the general "popular games" trend is that they ended up becoming overly specialized and inaccessible to newcomers.

Yes, technically you can still play a bunch of cool 4X games, but most people still making them (with the exception of like, CAs Total War, which also notably defocused the 4X part in favor of RTS combat) is copying the Paradox approach and Paradox is largely known for its absurd depth and mechanics... which unfortunately translates to the games devolving into spreadsheet simulators with fancy graphics.

Civilization was the right mix between "flavorful civilizations", "fun endgoals" and "reasonable to achieve victory against the computer". Most 4X games, because they copied the Paradox approach, kinda suffer from the fact that they pretty much demand immediate mastery of the systems if you want to succeed, unless you're playing with friends (in which case you have more control over each other's bumbling and one person can just hyperfocus on learning one system, while the other can focus on another.)

Its the difference between SimCity and Cities: Skylines. SimCity (before the final game) is a sandbox toy that lets you build a super dysfunctional city but y'know, as long as the taxes don't go in the red, you're doing fine! Cities: Skylines otoh has way harsher feedback tools if you don't build a highly functional city. That's fine if you're already tuned in on SimCity as a game and crave a higher challenge, but if you're new to these kinds of games, Cities: Skylines is just too much.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#134
post #8

Nostalgia wave at seeing images from this game again I like Cities: Skylines but am a little turned off at how central the traffic management is to the gameplay. Maybe I just never figured out all the right optimizations, but it feels like after a certain city size you're just spending all your time reworking your roads

There's a reason most people playing Cities: Skylines play with mods that do things like staggering the age of people moving to your city, allowing businesses to fire workers, patching the occupancy of buildings to be realistic, fixing truck drivers to work properly, etc. It's a little annoying that they chose to be super realistic with realism in some aspects then kind of fuzz the details on others. Hopefully the se…

Is there any mod packs that contain all the mods that "fixes" the game in the way you mention?

I'm also struggling with the same issues once I hit a certain size, and I don't want to spend 90% of my time trying to fix traffic issues.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#135

My only complaint about this game is that even the largest region size feels too dang small. I'd pay full retail price for a SimCity 5 that was just SimCity 4 with larger regions.

Basically that was what the entire community wanted + deeper gameplay, but instead EA chose to go the complete opposite direction, screwing the entire community and letting Cities: Skylines be the spiritual successor instead. Let's hope Cities 2 don't repeat the same mistake.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#137
post #62
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age of Empires 2, Sim City 3000, Diablo2 and Red Alert 2. Released in the span of 3 years. What an incredible era. Can’t shake off the feeling that 3D took away as much as it gave gaming. Also can’t believe it’s just my age-based selection bias.

It's not an age-based bias. These games couldn't expand on graphics, so they expanded on the logic of the game. That made them interesting. Very few games do that today (EU4, a favorite of mine, for example) but the trend now is to confuse the user with graphics while giving really little in term of content.

> but the trend now is to confuse the user with graphics while giving really little in term of content.

You'll be surprised, but gaming magazines used to say the same thing(s) even in the 80s. It's a platitude.

Fun thing: A famous game developer of that time, but can't remember which one, once said that "the name of game companies aren't creative enough". /shrug

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Level editing tools are created to build the levels by the devs. They just don't want to give them to players because they want to sell you additional content. Talking specifically about the usual suspects but hell, even some indie games are doing it now, in indie games it seems more popular to release a new game entirely which is basically 1.0 with new maps but thankfully there are tons of passion projects that get…

> Level editing tools are created to build the levels by the devs. They just don't want to give them to players because they want to sell you additional content. This is probably true as well, but the internet editor map editors use are often very different than what they would offer the community, requiring a lot of polish compared to what's used internally (and we all know that the 20% last polish takes 80% of the…

I don't disagree with your assessment and if anything it really opens the door for someone else to step in and offer these tools because if Skyrim, Minecraft, Gary's mod etc have shown us anything it's that these tools can create vast communities that will keep growing and supporting your work and any future releases. Just a shame to see so many companies prioritise profits over gameplay / replayability and community these days.

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#139
post #5

I prefer SimCity 2000. I feel like it hit a pretty good sweet spot between simulation and fun (which is to say, not even a vague gesturing at anything remotely realistic). Realistic simulation in games is almost universally less fun than simple, predictable game logic. Probably the most extreme example of this is chess: way more enjoyable than real warfare. Back on topic though. My beef with SimCity 4 is that it adde…

We already have OpenTTD and OpenRCT. Maybe someone somewhere is creating an C++ remake of our favourite isometric city simulator, with multiplayer support!

How the multiplayer mode would look like? Do you think about competing against the other real player? Or maybe collaborating with some friend?

I am asking, because I think I haven't seen the multiplayer support in any railroad/transport-tycoon game. I remember in Railroad Tycoon 2 and then in Sid Meier's Railroads [0] we could play against NPC. Same as us, NPC is establishing a company and we may buy all his stocks to win.

[0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/7600/Sid_Meiers_Railroads...

Re: SimCity 4 was released 20 years ago

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities Skylines just turns into "transportation mode simulator" for me. Still fun, but it is not the same thing.

What’s worse is that CS is a transport simulator that’s heavily biased towards cars; to the point where every new game starts off with a giant unsightly freeway in the middle of your town. I hope CS2 is more agnostic on transport mode. It would be nice to be able to create genuinely car-free cities in the game.

I actually found it the opposite. The more I intelligently laid out alternative transport the more that it got used, lessening traffic. But yes, the default mode is to just optimize traffic everywhere.
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