Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right? • Hacker News Board

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#131

Post by 13ren » Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 7:37 AM UTC

unalone wrote: post #76

azharcs wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were way too many people responsible for Steve Jobs success. Steve Woznaik, Jonathan Ive, John Lasseter, Gil Amelio and many many others. Steve Jobs didn't have to put in 10000 hours because someone else did it for him.

But that's too easy an association. Jobs has the ability to get rid of excess. While he doesn't make every single thing by hand, he's usually the final arbiter in most cases. And from most stories, he's the one who usually demands that people remove everything but the essentials. And that's absolutely a talent - not everybody can do it - and it's one that isn't explained by the sorts of work Jobs does. One of his abi…

I wonder if a factor is that Jobs makes many more attempts than most people, and goes from "failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" - but we remember the successes? He's had failures that would wash up most of us. Meanwhile, he gets better and better, while others give up.

I agree that not everybody can "remove everything but the essentials" - but I think that everybody can try to do it; can practice it. The difficulty is in knowing what the essentials are, which requires knowing what you are really doing, and what it needs. Through practice, we improve.

Could it be as simple as believing in your intuition? I mean: to consider what you believe is essential, and then act on it And find out if you were right or not. Then repeat many times. Without loss of enthusiasm...

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#132

Post by 13ren » Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 8:46 AM UTC

anthonyrubin wrote: post #44

13ren wrote: post #38

Why do people on HN discuss the title, and not the content? The average discussion on reddit/programming (for example) is now of higher quality than HN these days, for the same story - and with less oneupmanship. To me, the interesting thing about this story isn't the presentation of the thesis (using Ayn Rand), but to question the thesis itself: Is success more circumstantial than personal? http://nymag.com/arts/boo…

I have always found Gladwell's work to be interesting, but he suffers severely from confirmation bias. His pieces seem like very well laid out hypotheses with a lot of biased support and no further development nor testing. But again, they are interesting and great conversation starters. I strongly recommend voting up the original article so that we may refocus the discussion (I did not submit it): http://news.ycombin…

Does this apply to the particular thesis of his in question?

On HN, I've also heard that Seth Godin suffers from "confirmation bias" - but if we generalize about the person, instead of examining each specific thesis (and their support for it), it is an ad hominem argument - however kindly, balanced and reasonable the tone.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#133

Post by 13ren » Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 10:09 AM UTC

hugh wrote: post #88

ScottHanson wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the blog is the question: do the successful at least part of their success to the society they grew up in. Ayn Rand says no; Gladwell says yes.

I'm not convinced that Ayn Rand says no. She really never addresses the question of how her heroes get to be the way they are -- they just appear in her books fully formed with their brilliance and their values already in place. I expect that if Ayn Rand were actually pressed on the issue of "do the successful owe at least part of their success to their upbringing" she'd be forced to admit that yes, they do.

Her heroes work hard at whatever they love - it's not established why they love it, but it's established that they act on their love.

Peter Keating (the shadow or antagonist of Howard Roark in the Fountainhead, with comparable ability but different choices) provides a counter-example: he loves painting, but doesn't practice it until after many years of ("aw, hell") architecture. When he eventually does turn to it, Howard Roark gently tells him "it's too late".

Yes, her heroes' ability (brilliance) and loves (values) are already in place - but in this, they are no more gifted than anyone else. What differentiates them is their consistent choice to apply their ability to what they love, seek mentors, etc. As a personal choice, it is within their power, and does not come from their upbringing. It comes from them - as do your choices (of course, they also have many blessings and opportunities - as do you).

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#134

Post by zandorg » Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 2:22 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #62

ScottHanson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You first!

Can I jump in and say "It's most likely a mix of the two?" Steve Jobs was not and is not a huge computer hacker. Not like Bill Gates. But still, he was able to conceive of the idea of a personal computer, before anybody else had the idea. How did he get 10,000 hours working into that? From his own words, he got the idea by dropping acid and deciding that people weren't using this new technology in a way that could ch…

As a friend of the author, I know that people at Apple and Microsoft used Ted Nelson's Computer Lib as a bible on personal computing. Sadly, you can't buy it cheap (I have a signed reprint), but it's an astounding book.

It's likely that Jobs saw this early on.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#135

Post by 13ren » Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 2:43 PM UTC

zandorg wrote: post #134

unalone wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I jump in and say "It's most likely a mix of the two?" Steve Jobs was not and is not a huge computer hacker. Not like Bill Gates. But still, he was able to conceive of the idea of a personal computer, before anybody else had the idea. How did he get 10,000 hours working into that? From his own words, he got the idea by dropping acid and deciding that people weren't using this new technology in a way that could ch…

As a friend of the author, I know that people at Apple and Microsoft used Ted Nelson's Computer Lib as a bible on personal computing. Sadly, you can't buy it cheap (I have a signed reprint), but it's an astounding book. It's likely that Jobs saw this early on.

http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/TN/WRITINGS/TCOMPARADIGM/tedCom...

http://www.arch.kth.se/unrealstockholm/unreal_web/seminar03_...

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#136

Post by unalone » Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 9:16 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #52

The first thing I noticed is that this article misspells 'Roark', the protagonist in The Fountainhead . It's hard to take anything else in the article seriously. But I will answer the titular question nevertheless: Malcolm Gladwell and Ayn Rand are both wrong. Contra Gladwell, most great successes have great ability; they succeed where mediocrities would fail. Contra Rand, most great successes have great luck; they s…

Rand is very dogmatic, unfortunately. I like her ideas more than I do her execution of them.

Gladwell takes it a bit too far, in my opinion. The NYmag was the first interview I read of his, and he seems too determined to avoid taking the credit. It doesn't make him evil per se, not like Rand would say, but it does annoy me when I read his interview.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#137

Post by mhartl » Thu, Nov 13, 2008, 12:57 AM UTC

unalone wrote: post #136

mhartl wrote: post #52

The first thing I noticed is that this article misspells 'Roark', the protagonist in The Fountainhead . It's hard to take anything else in the article seriously. But I will answer the titular question nevertheless: Malcolm Gladwell and Ayn Rand are both wrong. Contra Gladwell, most great successes have great ability; they succeed where mediocrities would fail. Contra Rand, most great successes have great luck; they s…

Rand is very dogmatic, unfortunately. I like her ideas more than I do her execution of them. Gladwell takes it a bit too far, in my opinion. The NYmag was the first interview I read of his, and he seems too determined to avoid taking the credit. It doesn't make him evil per se, not like Rand would say, but it does annoy me when I read his interview.

I agree, on both points.