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You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

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Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#131

Post by Double_a_92 »

josephg wrote: post #53
DanHulton wrote: post #3

Every team I've worked on that has switched from Kanban to Scrum has slowed down and never regained the previous velocity. Further, many of the promised benefits of Scrum (things like better insight and predictability about delivery rates) never materialized. Every team that I've worked on that has switched from Scrum to Kanban saw an immediate improvement in speed that never disappeared. Once, just once, I was lucky…

I think the "problem" is that Scrum orients more to the needs of people outside the team. So, (in theory) you get clearer reporting and more visibility into whats going on. People expect that extra reporting to be free, but its not free. The time taken to do team task estimation, update jira tickets and have retrospectives is time spent not programming. The sad truth is that most management teams would prefer their e…

I've seen many people complain about reviews and retrospectives in those threads... But they don't seem like a bad thing to me. The problem is if the sprint is too short. But if the review and retro are done e.g. once every month or so, it can be a good way to see what the other teams have been doing and get an overall picture of your software. And the retro can be a good opportunity to talk about any problems that you encountered, and maybe trigger a solution, or at least just vent about it.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#132

Post by rightbyte »

misja111 wrote: post #112

You don't need Kanban, you just need to do Scrum right. It seems most people who are complaining about Scrum, are really complaining about the lousy implementation of it in their company. Which tends to be the result of lousy management. With lousy management, any process will be a pain. Doing Kanban with a manager behind your desk asking why your feature is not ready yet isn't a pleasure either. There also seems to…

We are way way past "doing it right".

It is agile that is at fault, not the average management on the average company.

If the average manager and dev won't be able to do it, then it is a lousy process.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#133

Post by s-lambert »

josephg wrote: post #53
DanHulton wrote: post #3

Every team I've worked on that has switched from Kanban to Scrum has slowed down and never regained the previous velocity. Further, many of the promised benefits of Scrum (things like better insight and predictability about delivery rates) never materialized. Every team that I've worked on that has switched from Scrum to Kanban saw an immediate improvement in speed that never disappeared. Once, just once, I was lucky…

I think the "problem" is that Scrum orients more to the needs of people outside the team. So, (in theory) you get clearer reporting and more visibility into whats going on. People expect that extra reporting to be free, but its not free. The time taken to do team task estimation, update jira tickets and have retrospectives is time spent not programming. The sad truth is that most management teams would prefer their e…

I don't see retrospectives being that much of a time-sink, it's a 30min/1hr meeting every 2 weeks. Even when I was on a kanban team they still had a fortnightly retrospective, it's useful to have a checkup occasionally.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#134

Post by darreninthenet »

josephg wrote: post #53
DanHulton wrote: post #3

Every team I've worked on that has switched from Kanban to Scrum has slowed down and never regained the previous velocity. Further, many of the promised benefits of Scrum (things like better insight and predictability about delivery rates) never materialized. Every team that I've worked on that has switched from Scrum to Kanban saw an immediate improvement in speed that never disappeared. Once, just once, I was lucky…

I think the "problem" is that Scrum orients more to the needs of people outside the team. So, (in theory) you get clearer reporting and more visibility into whats going on. People expect that extra reporting to be free, but its not free. The time taken to do team task estimation, update jira tickets and have retrospectives is time spent not programming. The sad truth is that most management teams would prefer their e…

This is just doing scrum badly... management break it by insisting the metrics etc are used as a reporting mechanism, they just cannot get away from "intensive control mode". The metrics are supposed to be for the team to use internally.

But I do agree with the post - Kanban is way way better and you can include the scrum continuous improvement elements as well on a regular cycle.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#135

Post by nprateem »

emodendroket wrote: post #124
rightbyte wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ye padding estimates and report time according to the estimate to make the burn down chart straight was what I learned to do when Scrum was forced on my team for no good reason at all. -"It is impossible to do accurate estimates" -"You will get better at it" I wonder if the Scrum Master knew that in the end "get better" is "starting to cheat". Do anyone else share this experience?

Estimation often is way off for construction projects, but would you hire a contractor who refused to hazard a guess of how long a job would take or how much it would cost?

Most companies have already hired the contractor though so this little dance is just pointlessness that kills motivation and velocity.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#136

Post by emodendroket »

nprateem wrote: post #135
emodendroket wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Estimation often is way off for construction projects, but would you hire a contractor who refused to hazard a guess of how long a job would take or how much it would cost?

Most companies have already hired the contractor though so this little dance is just pointlessness that kills motivation and velocity.

Surely an understanding of how much effort is needed to complete one project or another will inform their decisions of which to pursue.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#137

Post by colonwqbang »

irjustin wrote: post #24

I appreciate the article but I worry that Scrum implemented too rigidly is the reason why it gets a bad reputation. A lot of the arguments being made are really difficult to generalize and say "this works for every org!". One example: > When that happens, instead of designing features by committee, which demands a significant amount of back-and-forth discussions, decisions happen locally, and thus are easier to make.…

> But once a key portion of the requirements lives outside the team, this is no longer effective because then you're building without that feedback.

But how does Scrum help out here?

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#138

Post by Double_a_92 »

kqr wrote: post #104
irjustin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that because the product manager is gathering requirements from other orgs/users? > I have never seen feedback from estimation to requirements. Perhaps you work with perfect pms! jokes aside, usually all it takes is an estimation of 8 or 13 and something changes real fast.

I'm almost afraid to ask but what unit of time does that "8 or 13" correspond to?

Theoretically it's arbitrary numbers. Then a factor specifically calculated for your team gets applied to it to turn it into hours or days.

But in reality it's ideal hours or ideal days.

The 8 and 13 come from the fibonacci sequence.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#139

Post by Double_a_92 »

tysam_and wrote: post #57
DanHulton wrote: post #3

Every team I've worked on that has switched from Kanban to Scrum has slowed down and never regained the previous velocity. Further, many of the promised benefits of Scrum (things like better insight and predictability about delivery rates) never materialized. Every team that I've worked on that has switched from Scrum to Kanban saw an immediate improvement in speed that never disappeared. Once, just once, I was lucky…

I've seen Kanban work well on smaller scales, and Scrum work well on larger scales. I cannot for the life of me work in the churn and development pace of a Scrum team, so Kanban (and the culture around it) is best fit for me. I think it also depends upon the type and culture of people working in the team as well. Some teams work really, really well with the predictable cadence, others do not. It's a case by case kind…

The commitment to sprints was literally the first thing that got dropped in our company. It's so nonsensical to create completely arbitrary deadlines without any real urgency.

We now have long sprints (~1 months) for reviews and retrospectives. Which are usually well received. You get to see what all the other teams have been doing, and you also get a formal chance to talk about any problems.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#140

Post by [deleted] »

vikingerik wrote: post #85

The underlying triangle here: Out of time, scope, and quality, you can pick two to specify but you can't constrain all three. Scrum specifies fixed time and quality ("definition of done"), with scope as the flexible variable, as tasks get pushed out of each sprint. Kanban specifies fixed scope and quality, letting time be the floating factor for each task. Waterfall specifies fixed time and scope, with the inevitable…

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