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U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

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Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#131

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nawgz wrote: post #103
augment003 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.

> your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that…

> Will you propose a different reason why US police are so much deadlier

Guns. 1.2 per American, 0.35 per Canadian [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#132

Post by giantg2 »

nawgz wrote: post #103
augment003 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.

> your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that…

Crime rates, prevalence of firearms, etc are major differences which could account for the discrepancy. Many police in the US are required to have 60 credits minimum in college education (associates degree equivalent).

If you want to really look into this, legitimately, the best thing to do would be to compare use police to each other based on education. This is likely hard to do. However, state-level requirements and deaths could be compared between states with similar crime/murder rates.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#133

Post by sandworm101 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #127
sandworm101 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Nope. The American justice system does not control itself. It is bound by laws and codes of practice dictated to it by outsiders, those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember. It is as bad as it is because the general public honestly want it that way. Rough and vi…

> those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember Who are you referring to?

Every community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge. Every pundit who says that person X is "soft" on crime and person Y is "hard" as if that makes any difference. Every idiot out there who wants drug dealers locked up for life yet is unable to address their own addition to prescriptions. Every armchair lawyer who will spend hours outlining how judges should rule on hypothetical cases, but has never spent a day inside an actual courtroom. Every idiot who thinks his speeding ticket as important as a murder trial. And every one of the to-be sovereign citizens at YouTube university. After than, then we go after the flat earthers.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#134

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sandworm101 wrote: post #133
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember Who are you referring to?

Every community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge. Every pundit who says that person X is "soft" on crime and person Y is "hard" as if that makes any difference. Every idiot out there who wants drug dealers locked up for life yet is unable to address their own addition to prescriptions. Every armchair lawyer who will spend hours outlining how judges should rule on hypothetical cases, but…

> community meeting, every political rally, where crime is used as a wedge

Have you been to these? I have, in states red and blue. It's rarely a rah rah. Instead, people have complaints about specific categories of crimes, usually ones relevant to the community. The question is less locking people up than catching them. Policing. Sentencing is a separate system from policing.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#135

Post by PakG1 »

version_five wrote: post #2

Sort of related, ontario is dropping university requirements for police: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-edu... I wonder if it's coincidence or the start of a trend back to sanity about job qualifications. Ironically, by becoming almost ubiquitous, university education also becomes irrelevant.

I don't need police to be highly educated necessarily. I do need police to be psychologically balanced and show calm restraint. Is there a way we can put that in the job requirements and use it as hiring criteria?

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#136

Post by metalspot »

ejstronge wrote: post #108
metalspot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a private company just isn't going to invest the time and energy needed to train an apprentice not as long as they can force people to pay for it themselves and have the government and the tax payers subsidize it. universities were never meant to be vocational schools though, and they do a horrible job at it. to take computer science as an example: a 4 years bachelor degree only has about 500 hours of classroom ins…

> to take computer science as an example: a 4 years bachelor degree only has about 500 hours of classroom instruction in comp sci subjects. > a 9-5 vocational training program can provide 480 hours of classroom instruction in 3 months. This feels like a disingenuous response - are you suggesting that solely 500 hours of a computer science degree confers utility to a graduate? Even then, 500 hours taken consecutively…

> 500 hours taken consecutively can hardly be compared to 500 hours spent over multiple years

500 consecutive hours should be far superior because the time is focused and with fewer distractions.

training people in a professional 9-5 corporate environment as opposed to the adult daycare resort environment of universities would probably lead to better outcomes as well.

very little of what you learn in comp sci is relevant to your job as a new grad.

for software engineering a comp sci new grad still needs years of mentorship, supervision and on the job training in order to perform at a senior level in whatever specialty they end up working in.

because software engineering is so highly specialized pretty much everything you need to know for a particular job must be learned on the job.

the only thing a comp sci degree really shows is that a person has interest in the field and is capable of learning, but there are much better ways to figure that out than requiring degrees.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#137

Post by jaywalk »

catiopatio wrote: post #130
Arainach wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that…

Hiring people from a sociology/social justice background would just mean the same abuses of power, but different targets. Policing has gone in this direction in the UK, and now you have mothers being arrested in front of their children after “misgendering” someone online: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scotto... > St Albans Magistrates’ Court found her guilty, under the Communications Act (2003…

That sounds more like a problem with the law than with the police.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#138

Post by anigbrowl »

gtop3 wrote: post #92
willcipriano wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sound like just the people you want to hire if you want to build a lumbering bureaucratic organization.

Do you think U.S. Representative Staffers are not interacting with lumbering bureaucratic organizations? Being able to navigate and succeed in these organizations is a skill every organization with employees needs.

Yes, but what if you want to alter, restructure, or abolish parts of that bureaucratic apparatus? A lot of US officialdom (and business) is operated by unquestioning drones.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#140

Post by AlbertCory »

troutwine wrote: post #107
AlbertCory wrote: post #86

There's a story in Obama's bio (I think) where he went down to the local Chicago Democratic Party office to volunteer. Someone could find the reference if I'm not GPT-3'ing this. The guy behind the desk said, "Who sent you?" (meaning, "what Party official?") Obama said, "Nobody." So the guy sent him away, with "We don't want nobody nobody sent!" They didn't ask where he went to school, though.

My understanding is this anecdote originates with Abner Mikva. It is Chicagoland but from the 1940s.

Thanks. Fortunately I allowed for some uncertainty there.
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