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Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

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Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#131

Post by wpietri »

tomohelix wrote: post #128
wpietri wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that, as we left-handers are made up of the same sort of molecule as everybody else.

Haha no, I think you misunderstood. I meant the underlying reason for human to have a preferred "side" is probably the same reason that life has a preferred "side" for chemicals. Both humans and enzymes can be chiral, i.e. asymmetrical so I think they might be connected. Don't worry, I am not an atom-ist or a chiral-ist. All sides are equal! (except the ambidextrous master race :D )

What is the reason you have in mind?

I suspect it's different, in that I expect the reason for people is something like "handedness makes people better at violence". Whereas I suspect chirality is more like driving on the right/left side of the road. Which one you pick doesn't matter, but picking is less chaotic than not picking.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#132

Post by blahlabs »

danielvf wrote: post #126
abhibeckert wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always…

For stage directions there's also "House Left" and "House Right", which are from the perspective of the audience.

And in broadcast it can be referred to as 'Camera Left' and 'Camera Right', which is also from the audience perspective.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#133

Post by JumpCrisscross »

antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

> theatrical world takes an intermediate approach, where they use the terms "stage left / stage right”

Same for skiers’ left and right.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#134

Post by eternityforest »

lsaferite wrote: post #47
CardenB wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not distracting. There are many intense situations on a boat, and a crew is required to cooperate in order to survive. This means you must have extremely precise wording to quickly explain what needs to be done. This vocabulary is important for this reason, and is able to sharpen focus, rather than distract. It requires a process of learning, and that is intentional.

In English "right" is one syllable and "starboard" is two. All things considered, using right/left is more concise. If you are aware enough of your orientation on a boat to know where port and starboard are located, you are also aware enough to know where left and right are located.

The different number of syllables are like a checksum.

Plus, that's not how brains work. Using a word for different things that change depending on context is like reusing a variable, with a compiler that randomizes global and local scope. In aviation they watch out for "Regression to prior learning", in the kitchen I watch out for putting something in the microwave instead of the fridge because the action is similar.

If you ask me which way is left, I'll have to stop and think not only about what left and right even mean, probably looking at my hand to see what makes the L shape, but I'll have to wonder who's left you're referring to, in addition to performing a mental rotation, an extremely error prone operation that I basically avoid at all costs, if my heading is not the same as the ships.

Any small about of simplification or added reliability there is a good thing.

Especially in historical context. Assuming the port and starboard were not mostly symmetric and had features specific to docking and steering, you're actually referring to something specific, not an abstract direction.

These conventions are designed for the 95%, not the 5% or 75% or whatever who can instantly tell which way is left relative to any given orientation without any effort.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#135

Post by fargle »

When I was a kid in Minnesota we needed to learn port/starboard and the colors red/green.

A trick that helped me remember is that "LEFT", "PORT", and "RED" are all the shorter words and "RIGHT", "STARBOARD", and "GREEN" are the longer words in the respective pairs.

FWIW.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#136

Post by zarzavat »

antognini wrote: post #111
hanoz wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective. Didn't know that! So how pervasive is this principal? Would it apply to a descriptive reference to a diagram in a book for example?

Yes. As a random example, you'll see that although the lungs are seen from the perspective of a doctor facing a patient, they are labelled left/right from the patient's perspective: https://www.therespiratorysystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2017...

The reason is that when a patient comes to a doctor they will say they have a pain in their left side, without further qualification. So it makes sense to center the entire terminology around that situation. Otherwise doctors would constantly be having to do error-prone conversions.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#137

Post by jes »

geephroh wrote: post #60
drewrv wrote: post #8

I understand that the terms are mostly unambiguous, but I always wonder how these get defined in edge cases. For example ferries, at least where I live, alternate the direction of travel as they go back and forth. There isn't a fixed "bow" or "stern" from which to define port and starboard.

The Washington State ferry system uses double-ended vessels with a pilot house on each end with the crew swapping between them at each crossing. Whichever end the crew are at becomes the bow.[1] Funny -- I've ridden the ferries a lot and never really thought about it. 1. https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-e...

Kirkland, WA resident here. There is signage on the boat that uniquely identifies the #1 end and the #2 end of the boat. Can be helpful in finding your way back to your vehicle if you drove onto the ferry instead of being a walk-on passenger.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#138

Post by godelski »

tzs wrote: post #109
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

There's also the approach taken in some Australian native languages, e.g. [1], where they use absolute directions instead of relative directions, so they would call what we call the port side of a boat the north side if the boat was heading east, and call it the west side if the boat was heading north. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuuk_Thaayorre_language

There's a few other languages that do this (as the primary version. Most languages mix)[0]. In fact there's 3 main classes:

- relative: in relation to the viewer (e.g. The mouse is to my right)

- absolute: using some coordinate system, such as cardinal (e.g. Plant is on the North side of the room)

- intrinsic: relative, but with respect to another object and not the viewer (e.g. the TV is on top of the TV stand which is opposite of the door)

It is worth mentioning that this is overly simplified and that there is a lot more nuance to all this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_spatial_cognition

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#139

Post by noduerme »

jdietrich wrote: post #130
abhibeckert wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always…

In the automotive trade, a vehicle has a "driver's side" and "passenger side". This only partly solves the ambiguity, because of course some countries drive on the left.

I thought it would be difficult when I bought a car in Australia to manage shifting with my left hand, but it turned out to be surprisingly easy. I had been under the impression for some reason that the clutch would be controlled with the right foot. Thank God the pedals are in the same places.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#140

Post by zarzavat »

fargle wrote: post #135

When I was a kid in Minnesota we needed to learn port/starboard and the colors red/green. A trick that helped me remember is that "LEFT", "PORT", and "RED" are all the shorter words and "RIGHT", "STARBOARD", and "GREEN" are the longer words in the respective pairs. FWIW.

I was taught the mnemonic “There’s no red port left in the bottle”. Port wine is red.
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