Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison • Hacker News Board

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#131

Post by MBCook » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #124

MBCook wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution. It will require better processors, better cameras, LiDAR, more RAM, something.

> have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution Me either! But that’s not fraud. It’s delusion. We don’t criminalise it because the difference between genius and crazy is often only apparent ex post facto .

Selling a product that does X that neither currently does X nor can in the future do X seems like fraud to me.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#132

Post by cjensen » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

KindAndFriendly wrote: post #15

Reading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.

Self-delusion is not fraud. It's only a crime when you are not deluded and knowingly lie.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#133

Post by donatj » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

Are ankle monitors in this day and age not to the point where we can't keep people who are yet to be sentenced out of prison?

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#134

Post by RajT88 » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #69

One of the questions I have about any fraudster is where they fall on the goof/sociopath spectrum. It's surprisingly easy to start a Ponzi scheme by accident, after all. You just offer investors good returns (legal), be too optimistic about how it will go (legal), and then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal). I suspect a number of companies even get away with it, as they…

The kind of person who would start having children in hopes it would buy leniency in sentencing.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#135

Post by gigatexal » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #80

KindAndFriendly wrote: post #15

Reading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.

The difference is that TSLA investors are happy.

Both statements are hella cynical and 10000% true.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#136

Post by exclusiv » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #49

I don't think she, or other non-violent criminals, should be in prison. There are much more affordable and constructive ways to handle this. This isn't rehabilitation or justice, only punishment.

Making fraudulent claims for your medical device may not be traditionally violent. But it is.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#137

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

sorokod wrote: post #129

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how would you "dollarise" damage caused by incorrect sample analysis that caused the death of a patient I don’t personally believe jail should be limited to violent acts for this reason. (My exceptions being corruption and fraud.)

Well OK, how about a case where a convicted fraudster is unable to pay the financial penalty that was imposed on them?

[deleted]

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#138

Post by JohnFen » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #124

MBCook wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution. It will require better processors, better cameras, LiDAR, more RAM, something.

> have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution Me either! But that’s not fraud. It’s delusion. We don’t criminalise it because the difference between genius and crazy is often only apparent ex post facto .

I don't see any reason to think that Musk is either genius or crazy.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#139

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

sorokod wrote: post #129

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how would you "dollarise" damage caused by incorrect sample analysis that caused the death of a patient I don’t personally believe jail should be limited to violent acts for this reason. (My exceptions being corruption and fraud.)

Well OK, how about a case where a convicted fraudster is unable to pay the financial penalty that was imposed on them?

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant people shouldn’t go to jail unless it’s violence, corruption or fraud. Then jail time should be on the table. (But never mandatory.)

Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

#140

Post by lallysingh » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

figassis wrote: post #109

LanceJones wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an FSD Beta user. If you stop reading at "Full Self Driving Capability", then yes, it's an issue for a potential purchaser. But if you read just a little bit more, it becomes more clear what you're buying. I don't feel "fooled" and neither do 1000s of other Beta testers with whom I regularly communicate on Discord.

Don't think this is the point. Calling something Oranges, and then saying "they're not really oranges, but an approximation, but we call them oranges bc it sounds cool" is still fraudulent in my view.

It's actually really common. Like lemonade with no fruit juice. Or check out "Mayo" fake mayonnaise. It's literally not mayonnaise.