Live data from Hacker News

Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

kentnguyen.com

131–135 of 135 posts

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#131

This problem not only isn't unique to iOS dev work, it's not even unique to programming. Any custom work, from carpentry to bespoke tailoring to artwork, is more expensive than most people expect, even when they account for custom work being expensive. For instance, I knit, and have been asked more than once if I'd accept a commission (for, say, a pair of socks)---and when I decline, and say they couldn't afford it,…

My wife crochets and several times we have looked into what it would take for her to run a side-business with her talent. We always get stuck on the task of selling these at a price that makes sense given the time and effort involved. Others make it work, for example on Etsy, but I can't help but wonder if they're practically giving away their works or if there really are those who can throw together a blanket in a day.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#132
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. Most outsourcing projects don't go nearly that well. Which is a shame, but understandable. Why should the good Indian programmers work on the kind of projects people are willing to sell?

> "Most outsourcing projects don't go nearly that well." Do you have a source for this? I'm a "business guy", but I read the hell out of Hacker News. I hear this a lot, but it hasn't been my experience, whatsoever. Seriously, how is an outsider supposed to read these arguments as anything more than people on the inside trying to justify what they do and the prices they charge? Read that article again. It's written fo…

You call yourself a business guy but you aren't thinking with a business head in your posts.

First off, freelance developers are also "business guys" because they are running their own businesses. Any "business guy" knows that prices are largely set by supply and demand. A developer charging a high rate is doing so because the market can bear that rate. There is no need for justification here, the demand takes care of that nicely.

Just because a developer in India can do work for cheap doesn't mean he should. If he has world class development skills then he should be charging world class rates. Charging less because of location is a stupid business model and it's not reality. The reality is that there is less demand for their services (especially from the type of clients who are able to pay those higher prices) and they are charging accordingly. These guys are mediocre developers competing in a sea of mediocre developers.

Also, I believe the idea that globalization is driving down prices isn't reality. I'm a U.S. citizen living in the Philippines and I have seen that people are able to charge low rates because they are living in poverty.

You can live for a lot cheaper in the Philippines relative to most of the U.S. but you get what you pay for. Most expats who move here are able to live cheaper simply because they are simplifying their lifestyle. Once you start ratcheting up your lifestyle to get anywhere near the lifestyle you would have in the West, then you get back to the same Western level of spending.

I believe cheap developers abroad is going to be a short lived phenomenon. As developers get a taste of the money they can make, then they are going to want to improve their lifestyle and their rates are going to go up. Cities like Shanghai and Moscow (two countries with a reputation for cheap developers) are as expensive to live in as New York City. Also, as the economies of poor countries heat up, then a lot of their development pools are going to be eaten up by domestic demand.

The reason that developers here on hacker news claim that outsourcers do low quality work is because we see it all the time. That doesn't mean all projects are total crap, but a large number of them are. Sure, the project may result in something that works, but anything can be painted up to look like a success. However, that house of cards may come crashing down when a strong breeze comes along. When that happens you lose money and you look bad. Clients who have a real budget know this and they know that even $150 / hr developers are a small price to pay to get things done right.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#133
Worst. Article. Ever. Having just been in the situation of being a large corporation client trying (successfully) to hire a firm to do this, I'd like to point out that everything you've said about the prep here is just wrong.

(1) Big infrastructure needed: Seriously, if the client is not picky, you should be able to build a working basic infrastructure for the back end in a week. And that's generous.

(2) You need a way to communicate: The claim that there is no standard way to do it is just plain wrong. There is absolutely a standard way, its how everyone with a brain does it these days, and its easily supported through every device SDK - you use HTTP

(3) Design the API: No, design the app. Then determine what question it needs to ask the server, and figure out how to make the server answer them. Designing the API first is a very engineer thing to do - if you're the only user for the API its just a flat-out wrong approach

(4) Pay for it: Sure, but I'll pay for the amount of time it should take to do this. Which is a week. Engineers that want me to pay for them to sit and write 200 page requirements specifications need not apply. I want to work with the people that want to build something on day 1, and then keep tweaking it.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the worst I have seen. In the past I have been proposed around 1000$ but this wins, hands down! The world is getting crowded of last minute entrepreneurs...

There are far worse. If you live in NY, you've surely run into Eric Leebow of FreezeCrowd: http://nationaljobs.washingtonpost.com/a/all-jobs/list/q-fre... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQx_pJyyyxc "Unpaid iPad Intern wanted to build a facebook killer."

Ok, now the worst should be that you have to build the app AND to pay to build it. I will post an ad like that somewhere, to see how it goes.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#135

Worst. Article. Ever. Having just been in the situation of being a large corporation client trying (successfully) to hire a firm to do this, I'd like to point out that everything you've said about the prep here is just wrong. (1) Big infrastructure needed: Seriously, if the client is not picky, you should be able to build a working basic infrastructure for the back end in a week. And that's generous. (2) You need a w…

How do you know it takes a week to do it?
Post reply on HN