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Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

science.org

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Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#131

Post by rsfern »

photochemsyn wrote: post #32

DOE should really be spending more money on condensed matter physics than on high-energy physics, at least the former has more practical applications and research can be done with smaller budgets, and the latter has plateaued in many ways. Neutrinos are pretty fascinating, it's true, but the price tag's pretty high. DOE could instead be financing solar PV research, battery research, etc... although then the politicia…

DOE already funds a ton of research programs in battery tech, PV, and other renewables. I mean it would be great if they could fund even more, but you make it seem like some kind of politically untenable topic when it’s not

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#132

Post by blueline »

iampivot wrote: post #130

That is one very depressing looking building! As if it was built in North Korea!

Wilson Hall is the total opposite of depressing for me. Especially the interior is quite beautiful:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UOpsfRLRr_I/VbhWuR4OeBI/AAAAAAAAB...

https://live.staticflickr.com/3800/33033871090_f658526696_b....

The art and architecture around the lab has a surprisingly rich history dating back to its first director who was also a sculptor/artist: https://history.fnal.gov/historical/art_arch/art_architectur...

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#133

Post by lumost »

unethical_ban wrote: post #98
pieix wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government organizations should be wound down more regularly. Nobody would argue that a business unit that has outlived its usefulness should be funded in perpetuity, yet there seems to be this "strictly increasing" mindset around organizations funded by the taxpayer.

Fundamental research into particle physics: no longer necessary?

Not no longer necessary, but not viable on the scales we’re willing to invest. A new accelerator would cost on the order of 100 billion. Such an accelerator is unlikely to discover anything of interest compared to its cost.

There are paths forward, but most of them involve stellar phenomena - which leaves the extensive organizations required to push accelerators forward without much to do.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#134

Post by lazide »

spacecircle wrote: post #44
borkt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statement should read no civil service government employee should talk to the media about their work or workplace unless the authority to speak on the topic on which they are speaking is in their formal job description, or they have been approved to speak to the media by someone who’s formal job description gives them authority to approve that they do so. I am all for radical transparency in the public sector, but pa…

How does those instances compare to the number of times things that would be in the public interest were not shared, because the trained communicators knew it was bad for the bureaucracy? I say this as a federal scientist myself.

These issues are just two sides of the same coin.

Knowledge is power, and knowledge of what is going on can be used to harm the organization by outside actors - pathological and good ones - and control of information can be used by harmful internal actors to harm folks too.

Since (legitimately) harmful outside actors aren’t going away, especially in this space…..

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#135

Post by lazide »

bmitc wrote: post #101
dreamcompiler wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He does talk about corruption a bit but he focuses on other factors more.

Corruption is bad in and of itself, but it also adjusts incentives. So it ends up amplifying any inherent complexity and challenges.

Complex and difficult to understand projects are also great targets for corrupt actors, as it makes it easy to hide corruption.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#136

Post by lazide »

javajosh wrote: post #63
ISL wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a further subtlety -- the US would like to retain the capability to do this work without funding the entirety of the work itself. A lot of the expertise and infrastructure is unique and world-class. In my view, the entire field is on pause awaiting the development of truly transformative accelerator technology, then it's off to the races again. " In that sense, this new knowledge has all to do with honor and…

>would like to retain the capability to do this work without funding the entirety of the work itself Oh, then that's easy: just pay them to keep reading work in the field, maybe write a blog, and get into the theoretical side. I'm sure plenty of folks would jump at the opportunity to be on "professional standby" in a field they find fascinating.

Unfortunately that just attracts fakers/scammers, as it’s the perfect role for them. They get to act all high and valuable, but there is no concrete verifiable output expected to be able to tell if they really are able to do what they say or not.

At least until whatever situation you’re hoping to hedge against happens - then you’ll find out you’re being scammed, but far too late.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#137

Post by wolverine876 »

jay3ss wrote: post #122
veqq wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have engineers, scientists, and physicians driving Uber Why do you believe this?

Anecdotally, I've had many Uber drivers who are engineers/software developers

In SV?

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#138

Post by selimthegrim »

selimthegrim wrote: post #123
veqq wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have engineers, scientists, and physicians driving Uber Why do you believe this?

Because it’s true.

Are downvoters aware foreign qualifications don’t always transfer neatly? Sometimes even domestic citizens have to take jobs in between postdocs or staff positions?

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#139

Post by unethical_ban »

peterangular wrote: post #102
unethical_ban wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I last worked in person in IT, a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life. Different people went in the mornings. It was really useful to team-build and feel decent about work. People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me. I don't understand how people are supposed to have any joy at work, or get over comms barriers, when there…

Just responding to some of your points - sorry if this comes off as abrasive. > a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically, and perhaps…

To your first point, the coffee stops improved my ability to work with my teammates and get projects done. We were better for it. And for a fair amount of that time, we were salaried so we were paid to get a job done, not by how long it took.

I see a lot of the points though.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#140

Post by wolverine876 »

luckylion wrote: post #41
photochemsyn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on where responsibility begins and ends. It might make a lot more sense, financially, for the government to manage maintenance using supplies and equipments purchased from private companies, with the people working on the roads being government employees instead of employees of the contractors. However, for specific jobs - say building a new bridge, etc. - it might make sense to have that be a compl…

I think there's a good reason to have anti-corruption measures and bring down the hammer hard on everyone in the administration that tries to circumvent them, but I do believe that government is just too inefficient when it comes to doing things. I'd rather risk that every tenth contract is fraudulent than have every contract cost twice as much with the government doing it themselves. There's just zero incentive for…

> I'd rather risk that every tenth contract is fraudulent than have every contract cost twice as much with the government doing it themselves.

If you create the numbers, you'll reach your expected conclusion.

> There's just zero incentive for government employees to work quickly and efficiently.

Stop demonizing people. Just talk to some government employees. The article talks about how management works at DOE labs.

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