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No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

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Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the statement. It privileges economic factors over social factors, environmental factors, sexual factors. If it's easier today to inaccurately broadcast doom, then that is an indication that life got objectively worse in one respect. There are plenty of distopian SF societies that are wonderful from an economic basis, but horrific from another basis ( Brave New World is the most famous, but by far not…

As far as I can tell you are agreeing with the statement, as you agree that factors other than the economy must be driving the increase in unhappiness.

Please see my post here where I explicitly disagree: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34987495

(Pardon the tense disagreement in the third sentence.)

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#132
post #74
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be an indicator that people are less able to cope, and there is some really good causal evidence that social media causes anxiety in young girls.

> it could be an indicator that people are less able to cope That would mean life is worse. And we can measure how much worse in suicide rate deltas.

No, it would mean that one specific part of life is worse.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the statement. It privileges economic factors over social factors, environmental factors, sexual factors. If it's easier today to inaccurately broadcast doom, then that is an indication that life got objectively worse in one respect. There are plenty of distopian SF societies that are wonderful from an economic basis, but horrific from another basis ( Brave New World is the most famous, but by far not…

As far as I can tell you are agreeing with the statement, as you agree that factors other than the economy must be driving the increase in unhappiness.

Is increasing inequality not an economic factor? Inequality is a strong predictor of crime, which I think we'd agree is something which makes life objectively worse. So there's at least one economic factor which is causing an objective drop in quality of life.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#134
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what has changed since the 1950s? Trajectory of how well off average American will be in x years?

To add numbers to this: A teenager in 1950s would be 40-50 when the productivity-wage breakdown happened [1]. Their generation not only benefited, they caused that for juiced returns on their stocks. A teenager today was born an entire generation after that decoupling — and has only known a world where their parents were exploited by 1950s teenagers. I don’t think it’s surprising that a generation where hard work was…

I think that chart should be expressed in gold not in dollars to fully appreciate what's happening.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#135
This style of article -- the attempt to will truths into existence through the imposition of a specific perspective -- is always so patronizing...

Any time the word "objectively" is bandied around, you should be extremely skeptical. Very often, it is used to impose a values system pre-emptively on the conversation, and then make its argument from illusorily high ground. A true discussion on the subject would of course start with "what are the values we are trying to encourage in a healthy society, and how does that view differ between teens and other people?" which NY Mag doesn't seem interested in examining.

I suspect this is because the imposition of an external values system itself is what's killing teens. You will have to take me at my word that I have personal experience with this question among people who are in this demographic.

To me, teen suicide is making my life worse. It's making your life worse, too. If we want to play this game of counterfactuals, let's take it to its logical ends: how much will we miss these potential future inventors, stewards of good will, and powerhouses of industry when they are gone?

Also, objective measures are pointless when suicide is and only ever will be a subjective experience motivated by subjective viewpoints. If the point is "look how great everything is out here, outside of your little poisoned head!" then we can expect a spike, not a reduction, in suicides.

I didn't even have high hopes for this article but wow, this is an astonishingly out-of-touch take. Shame on the author, truly, for this.

Especially this part:

> It seems possible that the story of the teen-suicide crisis will come to resemble that of the opioid epidemic. Perhaps in a few years, we will find the U.S. economy’s structural inequities had less to do with American adolescents’ declining mental health than did the sudden introduction of a highly addictive (digital) technology.

Come on! There has been vigorous debate over exactly these things, and where they fit into our society (incentive structures for doctors and pharma companies to push their products on vulnerable populations, incentive structures for social media companies to promote or demote certain kinds of potentially harmful content) precisely because this is a question of societal values! The question "Do we subject unwitting populations to things we know will harm them?" can be answered in different ways. In our current society, we've decided that permitting companies to act in these ways is in our best interest in order to legitimize this method of organizing capital markets (the profit motive) and refusing to apply different rules for different companies or industries on the basis of appeals to "free market" principles.

I will note that, without access to the internal research of e.g. Meta or e.g. Purdue Pharma, the "consumers" of such "technologies" are literally, legally incapable of consenting to the set of possible outcomes that may result from their use. Furthermore, especially in the case of opioids, the people making the decision to accept such products are by definition under duress, as opioids are typically prescribed for constant and unbearable pain.

Re: No, Teen Suicide Isn’t Rising Because Life Got Objectively Worse

#136
post #17

The logic here is absolutely astounding. People _killing themselves_ is not an indicator that life is worse? What is it an indicator of, Mr Levitz? Are they unable to tolerate so much happiness? Are these people dumb? Defective? Arguing that life is objectively better because you are going to make a better salary than in the fifties is plain gaslighting, but I don't believe there are a lot of people who will still fa…

Do you disagree with this statement? > Whatever caused young people in the U.S. to develop higher rates of mental illness over the past two decades, it was not an objective collapse in living standards, employment prospects, or opportunities for material security. What numbers or objective data can you put forward to refute it? Imagine a short story where a man gets a diagnosis of an incurable, terminal disease certa…

Measuring current income is much less helpful for someone's longevity than measuring how long they can sustain a productive lifestyle without burning out. That's why people care so little about so-called "objective" metrics when considering things like "how much they like their lives".
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