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When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

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Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#131

Post by mekoka »

ceol wrote: post #115
mekoka wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that you're arguing only for the sake of it. In my original reply I addressed the perceived cause and effect of why women are under-represented in the videogame industry. I disagreed with the quick and easy finger pointing toward game designers as the original culprit. I redirected attention to historic games that were gender neutral and that were shunned by the female gender, due most likely to social…

> I redirected attention to historic games that were gender neutral and that were shunned by the female gender, due most likely to social prejudices, that videogames are a guy thing. You replied to my arguments by implicitly inferring that the games I cited as examples were somewhat gender biased. I added some arguments to the contrary. Now you use Ms Pac-man's logo as the basis of your argument about the genderizati…

I'm not going to continue to discuss this with you, because I realize now that I've been pointing in a specific direction, while you've had your own agenda all along and simply decided to engage me with no regard to what the discussion was actually about.

About Lara Croft and Samus Aran (which btw, were only introduced to the conversation to make the point that male/female protagonists have nothing to do with gameplay), I'd simply like to point out that I don't see what distinguish them so much from the Madonnas and other Britney Spears.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#132

Post by ceol »

mekoka wrote: post #131
ceol wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I redirected attention to historic games that were gender neutral and that were shunned by the female gender, due most likely to social prejudices, that videogames are a guy thing. You replied to my arguments by implicitly inferring that the games I cited as examples were somewhat gender biased. I added some arguments to the contrary. Now you use Ms Pac-man's logo as the basis of your argument about the genderizati…

I'm not going to continue to discuss this with you, because I realize now that I've been pointing in a specific direction, while you've had your own agenda all along and simply decided to engage me with no regard to what the discussion was actually about. About Lara Croft and Samus Aran (which btw, were only introduced to the conversation to make the point that male/female protagonists have nothing to do with gamepla…

You're doing a poor job of not continuing to discuss it with me by immediately continuing to discuss it. Of course I have an agenda: it's to hopefully enlighten some HN readers about gender discrimination in the tech industry. Most people have an agenda; you obviously did when you replied to me.

If you don't understand this discussion's direction, I'd be happy to guide you through it. For starters, it's about how video games have always been— and continue to be— gendered towards males. If you thought it was about something else, I can't really see why, since my original reply cemented the topic by pointing out the gendering in classic retro games.

> About Lara Croft and Samus Aran (which btw, were only introduced to the conversation to make the point that male/female protagonists have nothing to do with gameplay), I'd simply like to point out that I don't see what distinguish them so much from the Madonnas and other Britney Spears.

That's great! You're seeing how sexualized many female "role models" are. And just to round out my reply: we're not limited to gameplay here— story and graphics are more important. There's a reason Lara Croft was busty and Samus Aran wore a bikini under her suit despite it not making any sense, and it wasn't because girls love playing as them.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#133

Post by Cushman »

vectorpush wrote: post #121
Cushman wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, what? I'm a man, I made a statement about men which I do not find offensive. You edited it to be offensive to women , and that's supposed to make me feel offense? No. I'd recommend you also ask a woman for her opinion, though, in case my male-ness has prevented me from seeing the obvious. For future reference, statements made about privileged groups are not, generally, as offensive as those made about the…

His point is that it's offensive to prejudge all men in tech as incapable or unwilling to treat women as equal individuals. This sentiment is rooted in the idea that most men are not sexist, chauvinist, assholes. Those individuals who can't even be bothered to endure the torment of a male teacher lest they be patronized or spoken to with a tone of condescension are probably not well balanced people. From another pers…

Then he and you should take it up with the women who have had these negative experiences, whose prejudice you both are supposing, and not me. Do let me know how that goes.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#134

Post by yummyfajitas »

ceol wrote: post #129
yummyfajitas wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was talking about ways which CS could be bettered in general. From the article: "She said that CS is the only science where the participation of women is getting worse not better. We have a problem. We’re geeks (supposed to be good at problem solving). So let’s figure it out! I think we should look at: [The bulleted list from which I quoted some items]" According to her, these particular items are reasons why wom…

They're reasons why women are not participating— not reasons why "women are different from men in ways that make them poorly suited to a role in computing". There is a huge difference. No one is saying a class on algorithms is discrimination. Are you intentionally misconstruing her article or are you truly this confused?

You cited this article as evidence of discrimination. In reality, it says the gender gap is caused by gender differences in ability/preference.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#135

Post by lrhot9 »

ceol wrote: post #130
lrhot9 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, if discrimination is the main explanation, what's the second most important explanation? The third? Why are you sure they're less important than discrimination?

I'm not the one saying there's another realistic explanation. You should direct those questions at someone who is.

Which one of the non-realistic explanations is the closest to being a realistic explanation, and in what way does it fall short?

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#136

Post by ceol »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #134
ceol wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're reasons why women are not participating— not reasons why "women are different from men in ways that make them poorly suited to a role in computing". There is a huge difference. No one is saying a class on algorithms is discrimination. Are you intentionally misconstruing her article or are you truly this confused?

You cited this article as evidence of discrimination. In reality, it says the gender gap is caused by gender differences in ability/preference.

No, it says the gender gap is caused— in part— by assumptions that favor men due to the tech industry already favoring men. The first item on the list about video games being male-centric sets up the rest.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#137

Post by Drbble »

prophetjohn wrote: post #59
lizzard wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer for BlogHer, a women's media company with a big network of independent women bloggers, I hear lots of people who don't know the correct terminology say things like this. When they say "a WordPress.org" they mean "a self-hosted WordPress site".

I know what she meant, just like I know what my mom means when she points to her computer tower and calls it a CPU or calls her browser a search engine. I was just trying to make the point that her vocabulary didn't reflect a person who was particularly competent at programming. I later realized that she likely only learned enough HTML and CSS to customize a WordPress page, which just means that I assumed wrong about…

It is learning code.

Think back to the first eight hours of coding of your entire life. It was probably copy-pasting stuff you didn't really understand from a magazine or a web page and watching some colors flash or text scrolling down.

It is not a lot, but it is a start. 8 down, 9992 to go to mastery.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#138

Post by Drbble »

angrycoder wrote: post #80
eternalban wrote: post #22

"If we allow ..." Who is this we and how is this authoritarian power exercised? Interestingly enough, Age discrimination in the industry continues to be ignored while the (IMO) highly debatable notion of sex discrimination in the field is the subject of countless articles and debates. At least the Japanese are honest about the fact that they don't want programmers older than 30 years of age. The barrier to entry in t…

I personally have worked with half a dozen programmers over 40 and 2 over 50. All of the people I currently work with are over 30, myself included. I have worked with one female developer in my entire career.

I have worked with more female coders than over-40s. Maybe the industry is changing, and that change is visible at younger companies with younger staff.

Also, minorities tend to congregate in supportive environments, so you will find a bimodal distribution of organizations with peaks at many or no women, and trough at 1 or few women.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#139

Post by Drbble »

sgrossman wrote: post #111
ricefield wrote: post #73

Is it just me, or is the title an allusion to the Biblical name 'Methusaleh' (meaning, when he dies, the flood comes)

The title is a reference to the song "Rebel Girl" by the seminal Riot Grrrl band Bikini Kill.

"seminal", huh. I doubt whether they would take that as a compliment.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#140

Post by ceol »

lrhot9 wrote: post #135
ceol wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the one saying there's another realistic explanation. You should direct those questions at someone who is.

Which one of the non-realistic explanations is the closest to being a realistic explanation, and in what way does it fall short?

A non-realistic explanation would be that women are evolutionarily built to hate programming/technology so these fields naturally do not appeal to them. This also encompasses the "men are better at tech" thing.

Another non-realistic explanation would be that women collectively do not want to go into tech despite being equally good at it as men. As in, there isn't any discrimination, and they would be just as suited as men, but most women just go, "Meh. Don't care." for some reason.

I've heard both of these things and neither of them make any sense.

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