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Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

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Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#131
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it, though? To be blunt, run a news search for: professor rape for years "complaints" "ignored" Tons of distinct cases there. Many of them ignored until after the victim(s) filed suit. Edit: and at Stanford! [1] [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2022/06/19/a-stanford-professor-se...

If we’re going to be blunt, let’s be blunt about the dark side of reality. Consider the population of rapists. Who are you more likely feeling safe complaining about: 1) A professor 2) A cop 3) A powerful politician 4) A gangbanger 5) An unhinged uncle Consider the population of false rape accusers. Are they more likely to be: 1) An immature college student relatively new to determining sexual boundaries marinating i…

Best of luck.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#132
post #104

You hear this from police, too and it's one of the reasons police will often require you to go to a specific station, sign an affidavit, record an interview of you, and provide maximal information to show that your complaint is valid, and now your name is stored in their systems forever. Which, you know, leads to situations where a complaint is filed, but eg there's fear of retribution. So maybe they'll fill out an a…

> Hell, I've seen complaints get dropped -- despite videos proof attached to the complaint -- that show cops slamming a kid against a wall and threatening to beat the kid up. Because the person getting slammed against a wall didn't know the badge number. If there was video evidence of a cop slamming a kid against a wall, why was this not used to identify the officer? This seems like a pretty outrageous claim that dem…

>why was this not used to identify the officer?

The machine protects itself.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an important principle and like anything it can't be dogma. Like anything, we need to take into account other important principles and also the higher purpose it serves - let's say 'liberty and justice for all'. Powerful people often threaten those who are less powerful when they abuse them: If you tell anyone, I will ... ruin your career, kill you, hurt your family, prosecute you; harass, humiliate and persecut…

How does one balance the rights of the vulnerable, who sometimes do need to be anonymous for fear of retribution and the people who use anonymous accusations as a harassment strategy or for political purposes or for a witch hunt? The only way seems to be to have a more-or-less independent panel who would look at the anonymous accusations and make an impartial decision on the same. The legal system, as it exists, seem…

> The legal system, as it exists, seems to be such a body, definitely much more impartial and unbiased than a random administrator in Stanford.

How does Stanford process these reports? Also, the legal system is designed to handle prosecutions; I'd guess that only a small number of reports become any sort of prosecution.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So do you admit that if a private company forces you to have troops in your house, without your permission, this is still bad even though it is not literally the government doing it? It's literally trespassing - there is a law against, it need not be a constitutional amendment. Your point actually runs completely against your argument. >Now, question for you. Did you read the original comment and really not come to…

> It's literally trespassing - there is a law against So then yes it is bad! Even though a private company is doing it, and it is not the government, it is bad! You agree with me! And therefore someone saying "well a private company is trespassing, and a private company is not the government" would be making a stupid argument. > so what's the point? The point is that the commonly brought up argument of "well it's a p…

No one ever debated with you whether or not trespassing was bad... so I don't get the big stink you are making here about us agreeing.

>The point is that the commonly brought up argument of "well it's a private company!" is dumb.

It's not. You misunderstand the argument. That argument applies to the constitution. Not to things that are also paralleled in statute or the common law. That's the difference between the two. You don't call the police and say "someone is violating the third amendment" you call the police and say "someone is trespassing on my property!" they are similar in a vague principal, but not identical at all. The difference, I thought, was pretty obvious, but if you have questions, I'm happy to get into it.

>Therefore someone saying "it's a private company" is making a bad argument.

It's not, because there are differences between private actors and the gov't. The gov't, for example, is incredibly limited with regards to speech. Private actors aren't. You can't make me say anything. That's a good thing - do you understand that? The difference is, that the gov't is empowered to threaten you with your life and liberty in order to compel speech- except for the constitution. This has nothing to do with private actors. There is no principal that private actors can compel or restrict speech, because we are all free individuals that can choose to partake or not - that isn't the case when the gov't is involved. I'm surprised you don't seem to grasp this basic concept of civics.

>And yet despite how extremely obvious this is, people still make this "well it's a private company!" Argument over and over again.

Because they are referring to a limit placed upon the federal gov't by the constitution.

>I am glad you agree completely with me, and not only that you think my point is obviously true.

I don't agree with you completely. This is a bizarre way to conduct yourself.

>The reason why it is funny is because people legitimately make this "it's a private company!" argument over and over again, which is a really dumb argument.

Because those are contexts where the constitution doesn't apply. For example, there is an amendment that gives women the right to vote... what does that have to do with private actors? Nothing. Your argument that the constitution anything else... is confused at best.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's literally trespassing - there is a law against So then yes it is bad! Even though a private company is doing it, and it is not the government, it is bad! You agree with me! And therefore someone saying "well a private company is trespassing, and a private company is not the government" would be making a stupid argument. > so what's the point? The point is that the commonly brought up argument of "well it's a p…

No one ever debated with you whether or not trespassing was bad... so I don't get the big stink you are making here about us agreeing. >The point is that the commonly brought up argument of "well it's a private company!" is dumb. It's not. You misunderstand the argument. That argument applies to the constitution. Not to things that are also paralleled in statute or the common law. That's the difference between the tw…

> It's not, because there are differences between private actors and the gov't

I am going to keep my response short to ensure that you cannot possibly misunderstand it.

Point 1.

There are principles that matter, even if it a private company doing the bad thing.

Agree or disagree with this directly.

Point 2.

Yes, if the government does bad thing X, it could be worse than if a private company does it, but it is still bad if a private company does it.

Agree or disagree with this 2nd point, directly.

Edit:

And point 3.

Some of those principles that are mentioned in the previous 2 points are in the constitution.

As in people care about things and principles and motivations, of the things in the constitution, even if it isnt literally the government doing the bad thing.

(Such as, for example, a private company putting soldiers in your house, without your permission)

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its unclear to me the point you are trying to make. It reads to me that you think because that law does not apply here that the principles involved do not? Your points about freedom of association are likewise illegible in this context.

Those don't apply to "at-will" employment - you have freedom of speech in that you won't be sent to jail, but you can easily be fired for something you say. That law actually doesn't apply here because the situation is different. This affects freedom of association because it supports the rights of individuals to form organizations, and also for the organization to deny membership, so the school has the right to remo…

so the school has the right to remove a professor if the student body doesn't want them for some reason

Yes, but is that a good idea? Latest example: the incident at Hamline University, where a student felt offended when he was shown Mohammed images in an art history class. These were not the CIA-sponsored Jyllandsposten kind designed to incite outrage but perfectly orthodox Persian and Mughal miniatures with scenes from the Islamic prophet's life. Universities have a purpose in society, and the at-will cater-to-students atmosphere really doesn't help that.

Also - freedom of association and freedom of speech, these are extremely valuable rights, they are necessary for the functioning of society and rightfully enshrined by the constitution. But what good are they if you can get fired for associating with the wrong kind of people (atheists? Satanic Temple?) oy saying the wrong this (perhaps the word "transsexual"?

It's a difficult problem that is not helped by facile "from first principles" analysis.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#137

Anonymous accusations are a fine way to harass and intimidate anyone you disagree with or have a grudge against. As the article points out, it's a fine tool for oppression. A fundamental right we have in the US is the right to face our accusers, for good reason. Here's the text of it: > Sixth Amendment > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury…

Yes, exactly. And I understand that you are not suggesting that Stanford is violating the 6th amendment, since this is not a criminal prosecution. What you're saying is that Stanford should adopt the same line of reasoning embodied in the 6th amendment, to the extent that being accused in this fashion is a very high cost, and that the accuser should not be able to escape accountability for making false or misleading…

> the accuser should not be able to escape accountability for making false or misleading accusations.

OT: Unfortunately, prosecutors in the US have "absolute immunity" and cannot be prosecuted for bringing charges, no matter if they have financial/political/personal conflicts of interest, or the charges are illegal.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so done with this performative outrage. Yesterday somebody called me "dude". According to Wikipedia, dude was a replacement for "dandy" in the late 1800s. I'm gay. How dare thee??!! Where's my check?

I always thought it was a city person trying to be a rancher / cowboy / farmer.

Me too but fortunately I found there was a different etymology 140 years ago, so now I get to be outraged for fun and profit.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever debated with you whether or not trespassing was bad... so I don't get the big stink you are making here about us agreeing. >The point is that the commonly brought up argument of "well it's a private company!" is dumb. It's not. You misunderstand the argument. That argument applies to the constitution. Not to things that are also paralleled in statute or the common law. That's the difference between the tw…

> It's not, because there are differences between private actors and the gov't I am going to keep my response short to ensure that you cannot possibly misunderstand it. Point 1. There are principles that matter, even if it a private company doing the bad thing. Agree or disagree with this directly. Point 2. Yes, if the government does bad thing X, it could be worse than if a private company does it, but it is still b…

1. too vague for me to agree - what principles? whose principles? even then, I'm not sure that all principles that apply to gov't, apply to private actors. for ex. some might say it's a good principle to be religious, but we don't think that is true for gov't (so we restrict the gov't via the constitution), or the corollary, that it's good for the gov't to not be religious, but not necc. true for the individual.

2. too vague, for me to agree, again. there things the gov't can do that private companies can't. the gov't can, within the confines of the law, put you in jail, private companies cannot, so I don't think your point here makes any sense. sure, there are obviously some circumstances where that is true, just like in example 1, but you aren't offering it in that fashion.

3. you didn't mention any particular principals in the previous 2 points. The constitution isn't a list of principals. It's a list of restrictions on gov't conduct. Full stop. Like anything else in the world made by people, it reflects their principals to one extent or another (like this post, or website, or desk I'm typing on).

>As in people care about things and principles and motivations, of the things in the constitution, even if it isnt literally the government doing the bad thing.

Okay? That has nothing to do with what people are telling you when they say "it's a private company". They are saying, you can't rely upon the principle of the constitution alone, because the constitution isn't a list of principles (it's not the bible) its literally just a document that describes how the gov't works.

>(Such as, for example, a private company putting soldiers in your house, without your permission)

But this isn't a principle of society. Society has the principle that people are entitled to control the space they have the rights to, and that's reflected in numerous laws. What you cite isn't a principle, it's just a limitation of what the gov't can do.

You are backwards rationalizing the constitution into whatever principal you want to argue for. That's just not a good argument because the constitution doesn't list or even describe principles. The writers of the constitution wrote a lot about principles, and that's reflected in the specific limitations they placed on the gov't. But those authors would never say that the constitution is the basis of those principles, because it isn't. They would point to other writers, or documents, such as the bible, or the declaration of independence (which unlike the constitution, did declare a number of principles to be self evident, you might recall).

For example, if you wanted to say that private actors (companies) should not be able to restrict what their customers say because of the principle in the constitution, it's not a good argument. That is because a) the principle reflected in the is specific to gov't, b) because the constitution only addresses what the gov't should do, not what people should do. The constitution doesn't tell us how to behave, it tells the gov't how it cannot behave. So if you want to make an argument about what people should do or not do, there are probably some overlapping inspirational sources that underly the constitution, but the constitution ain't it.

So, once again, you are getting it quite backwards! I appreciate you pushing me to really make this clear on your terms, and not just be rude. But it'd be nice if you actually bothered to engage with what I'm saying in my response, which I see you haven't done with the others posters in this thread.

Re: Stanford faculty say anonymous student bias reports threaten free speech

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not, because there are differences between private actors and the gov't I am going to keep my response short to ensure that you cannot possibly misunderstand it. Point 1. There are principles that matter, even if it a private company doing the bad thing. Agree or disagree with this directly. Point 2. Yes, if the government does bad thing X, it could be worse than if a private company does it, but it is still b…

1. too vague for me to agree - what principles? whose principles? even then, I'm not sure that all principles that apply to gov't, apply to private actors. for ex. some might say it's a good principle to be religious, but we don't think that is true for gov't (so we restrict the gov't via the constitution), or the corollary, that it's good for the gov't to not be religious, but not necc. true for the individual. 2. t…

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