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Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

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Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#131

Post by Kon5ole »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #107
senectus1 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is so much bullshit. Green Hydrogen is just as much a fuel source as Gasoline is. Do you think it takes no energy to mine, refine and transport gasoline? It might not fit in your current view of the world where the cost of our environment is zero sum to you, but that cost MUST be factored into it.

> it takes no energy to mine, refine and transport gasoline The fact that these systems often burn their own fuel as power while exporting a premium should show that yes, extracting and producing oil and gas is net energy contributing in a way green hydrogen is not.

Gasoline is a transport mechanism for solar power just like green hydrogen is. The difference is only that oil was stored by nature millions of years ago while green hydro is stored by humans today.

The important point is whether or not the energy used to create it was "free". From a human perspective, the energy that was spent creating oil was "free". But if you have an intermittent surplus of renewable power and use it to create green hydrogen it is also "free".

Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#132

Post by panick21_ »

zopa wrote: post #117
panick21_ wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’re going to need to do lots of different things. There’s no need to fight about it; everybody’s favorite will have a chance. Actually this isn't the case. Funding choices matter. And not all technology can get funding. Hydrogen investment for the last 40 years has cost untold billions, and has led to almost nothing. Its has actually delayed real efforts in places like Japan. Here we have an article asking for in…

If thorium is cheap, there should be plenty of funding to go around. If it’s expensive, what’s the point? I’d also be interested to hear roughly how much public funding you think is implied by the article. My takeaway was that it suggested: 1) some geological surveys, 2) maybe some regulatory fixes, 3) a bunch of private investment. All of which are the next thing to free by government standards.

> If thorium is cheap, there should be plenty of funding to go around.

You seem to make the mistake to believe that government funding and government planning in regards to energy is rational and focused on finding the long term best solution.

... but it isn't.

If they don't want much government investment I don't have a problem with them trying.

But in general, historically the whole concept of a hydrogen economy has consumed huge amounts of government money with very little to show for it.

Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#133

Post by panick21_ »

zopa wrote: post #118
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They all require funding for more research to hopefully bring them to fruition. In that sense, it's understandable why people who have joined Team Clean X would want to push the message of how it is better than Team Clean Y.

Sure, but it’s wildly counterproductive. The result is free-floating negativity about all the possible solutions. Until we’re meeting the scale of the problem, we should all be focusing on “yes, and”

The problem is that 'yes, and' mentality is not reality. Every country and company has limited budget, you can just say 'yes' to everything.

In terms of research, sure, research a whole bunch of stuff, that's good.

At some point however you have to rationally look at the problem and come up with a comprehensive solution. At that point the 'yes, and' mentality hurts as much as it helps.

French historical example is interesting here. When they did their nuclear program in the 70/80s they didn't say 'yes, and' they picked basically 1 type of reactor and simply mass produced it. Within 20 years the mostly solved the green electricity problem (without even trying). Its the opposite of 'yes, and', its analyzing the problem, creating a plan and executing that plan.

Very big countries like the US and China will have a much more 'yes, and' approach simply because they are so much bigger, with so much more people and so much more demand that they can actually do that.

Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#134

Post by _hypx »

dredmorbius wrote: post #129
_hypx wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should be noted that natural hydrogen was also known since antiquity: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00128... The problem is that no one cared or knew what it was. This is not that dissimilar to petroleum itself, which was also ignored until the 19th century. Before then, it was seen as a curiosity and similarly ignored or misunderstood.

Thanks. That adds another few known cases, but still nothing like the record for coal, oil, and gas prior to the industrial age.

People can say that in hindsight. But no one in the early to mid-1800s believed that oil seeps implied anything significant, or that oil was a plentiful substance. It was a geological curiosity at the time. Most people had no idea they even existed.

Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#135

Post by cafard »

hasmanean wrote: post #114
stuaxo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that we will run out of hydrocarbons - we already have enough known reserves to make the earth uninhabitable to us.

If we can green Mars, surely we can think of a way to green the Sahara. As always it’s the political will that’s lacking.

We can green Mars? I hadn't heard.

Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#136

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Kon5ole wrote: post #131
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it takes no energy to mine, refine and transport gasoline The fact that these systems often burn their own fuel as power while exporting a premium should show that yes, extracting and producing oil and gas is net energy contributing in a way green hydrogen is not.

Gasoline is a transport mechanism for solar power just like green hydrogen is. The difference is only that oil was stored by nature millions of years ago while green hydro is stored by humans today. The important point is whether or not the energy used to create it was "free". From a human perspective, the energy that was spent creating oil was "free". But if you have an intermittent surplus of renewable power and us…

> if you have an intermittent surplus of renewable power and use it to create green hydrogen it is also "free"

This ignores every competing method of energy storage.

Re: Hydrogen: Does Earth hold vast stores of a renewable, carbon-free fuel?

#137

Post by _hypx »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #136
Kon5ole wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasoline is a transport mechanism for solar power just like green hydrogen is. The difference is only that oil was stored by nature millions of years ago while green hydro is stored by humans today. The important point is whether or not the energy used to create it was "free". From a human perspective, the energy that was spent creating oil was "free". But if you have an intermittent surplus of renewable power and us…

> if you have an intermittent surplus of renewable power and use it to create green hydrogen it is also "free" This ignores every competing method of energy storage.

Practically no competing energy storage idea is going to be as cheap. With hydrogen, the only raw material is water. Nothing else can claim that they are utilizing resources that plentiful.
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