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Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

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Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#131

Post by nerdponx »

nimbius wrote: post #62
elif wrote: post #2

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

hi, im an IAM union diesel engine mechanic and have been for over a decade. Maybe I can help explain a bit. in a 'blue collar' job like manufacturing or shipping or any of the trades like plumbing or mechanical maintenance, the only part of the business that doesnt see meaningful pushback is the labor. My job performance as a TIG welder in Texas as part of an oil and gas company was stellar, but not stellar enough to…

> Those CSX rail workers just didn't work hard enough, and poor struggling management can't afford to give them paid sick leave because they're just so lazy and they work too slowly to be able to take the time off.

The above should be obvious as cruel sarcasm, but based on how people talk (and vote), it seems that some people genuinely believe such things.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#132

Post by Eisenstein »

kingstoned wrote: post #126
realslimjd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you missed my point that it is not in a union's interest to protect low-performing workers. A union cannot survive without jobs, and union members are just as frustrated as anyone else when someone is not pulling their weight. To your point about labor restrictions, unions gave us two day weekends and forty hour weeks. Modern labor practices are almost entirely defined by things unions fought for and stan…

So according to you unions are rational, omnisciencet and benevolent agents, while entrepreneurs are dumb irrational idiots who will randomly fire people all the time for wearing a green shirt. To your point about labor restrictions, unions gave us two day weekends and forty hour weeks. Modern labor practices are almost entirely defined by things unions fought for and standardized. The restrictions we have on work no…

> So according to you unions are rational, omnisciencet and benevolent agents, while entrepreneurs are dumb irrational idiots who will randomly fire people all the time for wearing a green shirt.

Why so antagonistic? By the way getting antagonistic doesn't make your argument better, it just makes you look frustrated and sour. Using logical fallacies like false binaries also isn't helpful.

The point isn't that one set is 'rational and good' and the other is 'frivolous and bad', the point is that in order for markets to work (labor is a market) there must be a even playing field so that parties can leverage their value for others without getting exploited.

When you have a society setup like the USA, without a real safety net and where periods of unemployment lead to instability financially, personally, and healthcare-wise, then employees are not able to properly leverage their value.

The proposal of 'work for me or your life falls apart' is pretty devastating to labor markets because it makes people settle for bad deals.

Unions are one method of trying to level this, by saying 'if you try to make me work on a ledge and don't give me a harness, then we are all going to shut down your business and not let you hire someone more desperate to do it' then one person is able to leverage the actual value of labor to bargain with the employer.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#133

Post by credit_guy »

FireBeyond wrote: post #36
alfor wrote: post #23

I wouldn’t be surprised that UAW be behind that. It’s a very powerful organisation having a lot of political power. They see Tesla as a threat to their system as Tesla is the only in the US not part of it and they are doing better than all the other car companies. I know someone who saved companies from bankruptcy, usually heavy industries. When he get hired he install security cameras and other measures and after a…

That's a pretty big conclusion you're drawing there, and it's not something that's been supported by much evidence. To be clear, the contention is "Most heavy industries go bankrupt because union members are constantly stealing supplies from the company." Consider me skeptical. And I'm not a union member, let alone UAW.

> To be clear, the contention is "Most heavy industries go bankrupt because union members are constantly stealing supplies from the company."

I didn't read it like that, and I'm surprised anyone can read it this way.

It seems to me the contention is that someone who steals from a company does other things too that lower the overall productivity of the company. One bad apple and all that. The supporting evidence was that once those people were fired, the company starting performing well.

At least that's how I understand the OP's argument.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#134

Post by Robotbeat »

vidarh wrote: post #127
Robotbeat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, you don’t really have the luxury of picking a different union. This is one reason unions suck in the US.

You do, sort of (though I get what you mean) even as an individual, even though it's less common and affects the benefits you get from being a member, and you may risk still paying dues to the recognised union (if there is one, and your state allows agency fees). At the larger scale, your choice is to try to convince your co-workers. The downside of joining a minority union / members only union is not that different…

So in other words… we have effective union monopolization in the US.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#135

Post by uxp100 »

PavleMiha wrote: post #102
kingstoned wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. What would people do with this theoretical collective power? Probably job security combined with restrictions on work. Do as little as you can while being guaranteed a paycheck. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. How can people be fired for no reason? There is always a reason,…

On the other hand, why would people use their collective power to sink the company they work for? No company, no jobs. In reality the power has to be balanced between the two, and both parties need to act carefully and rationally.

And in fact, sometimes I feel the power goes the other way a little bit. Unions are big boosters for industry in a way that can be negative for the public. So you’ve got “pro-business” politicians supporting some project (let’s say highway expansion) alongside “pro-labor” politicians. The glowing blue orb manufacturers agree with their unions that people need more glowing blue orbs.

That’s in the case of a traditional trade union anyway, there are other models, and if there’s one big union that represents horseshoe workers (blacksmiths? Puddlers? Idk how a horseshoe is made I guess) and rubber tire manufacturers well, uh, they’ve got some things to discuss.

Anyway, much ink has been used discussing this by people better informed than me, but yeah, I agree, it is nuanced.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#136

Post by cactusplant7374 »

Robotbeat wrote: post #49
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t Tesla build quality go up with a union that can make demands? If so, how can we say Tesla’s system is working and management isn’t unproductive and unreliable?

I have seen no evidence of build quality being higher in the unionized GM and Ford than the non-unionized Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda plants in the US. The opposite may even be true.

I was referring to panel gaps and other quality issues which are quite egregious with the Tesla brand.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#137

Post by quadrifoliate »

trieste92 wrote: post #108
quadrifoliate wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're Stockholm Syndromed, but I definitely think you're lacking in empathy. Think about it this way -- do you think you have been always productive and reliable, 100% of the time? If not (let's say, 5% of the time you weren't), then you were the the unproductive or unreliable coworker, possibly due to factors in your life that you could not control. The idea of a union is that it insulates you from be…

> The idea of a union is that it insulates you from being instantly punished for factors you might not be able to control a little better than the market is doing right now. Most people have good days and bad days. Any manager who's crazy enough to punish someone for having one bad day isn't a good manager. If that happens it's likely a manager specific issue > When was the last time you got a job purely on the basis…

> Most people have good days and bad days. Any manager who's crazy enough to punish someone for having one bad day isn't a good manager. If that happens it's likely a manager specific issue

How about 2 bad months due to an illness? US companies are pretty much set up so that people in those situations often end up being let go. It's not a "manager specific issue", it's a broader cultural one.

> This isn't a bad thing. More merit, less favoritism.

Sure, but then the OP's point about personal relationships is neutralized, which is why they (if not you) might want to consider unions if they want to protect themselves from the stark meritocracy that you posit.

> People are hired based off of qualifications alone (ideally)

Yep, and kept employed based on the same, and let go immediately if there might be someone cheaper or if market conditions change even slightly and "It's good for the business!". This is raw capitalism. What we have been discovering in the past couple of months of layoffs is that not everyone has the taste for it. Those folks, including OP, might want to consider unionizing.

Re: Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

#138

Post by vidarh »

Robotbeat wrote: post #134
vidarh wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do, sort of (though I get what you mean) even as an individual, even though it's less common and affects the benefits you get from being a member, and you may risk still paying dues to the recognised union (if there is one, and your state allows agency fees). At the larger scale, your choice is to try to convince your co-workers. The downside of joining a minority union / members only union is not that different…

So in other words… we have effective union monopolization in the US.

Not all that much more so than in a substantial proportion of other countries with far more powerful unions, and which often have multiple unions represented in the same companies.

Most places have thresholds to be met before an employer can be forced to recognise a given union. It's not unusual for that threshold to be 50% per unit and for people to still opt to stay members in a minority union, which you can in the US too.

The main way the US distinguishes itself in terms of unionisation is by low union membership, and as such the lack of significant minority union locals in the US is more a factor of few people joining a union unless they'd be paying agency fees anyway.

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