Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

phillymag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 265 posts

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#131

Post by genocidicbunny »

rwalle wrote: post #65
icepat wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone headed move. They must have miscalculated if they think the students will cave to this pressure It´s not about caving, I don´t think. It´s about maximum damage. University administration is one of the most ruthless groups you can come across. They´re well aware that they hold the future ambitions of these students in their hands. Even if they get sued, even if they lose, they´re well aware that they can utterl…

The story of Mackenzie Fierceton is a perfect example. These scumbags in university administration could not care less about ruining a student's future. They have nothing to lose.

> They have nothing to lose.

Which is what I really think the core of the problem is. These people make decisions that can ruin of a whole host of people, but face no accountability for it.

I'm of the opinion that there should always be a remedy available for those wronged, and the ones doing the wronging should hope it's only via the court system.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#132

Post by secabeen »

thwayunion wrote: post #125
secabeen wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see that they are cancelling it? Nothing in the statement I see precludes Temple from paying the remission if the strike resolves in two weeks, well before the due date. Even if the strike goes on longer, and the tuition so due is not paid, the penalty is still relatively a minor; a fine, and inability to register for the following quarter (presumably Fall, over 7 months away).

> Nothing in the statement I see precludes Temple... Nothing precludes them from doing anything, and nothing precludes students from seeking legal remedies for those actions. Look, I'm not sure. Temple might have a defensible claim for charging tuition; it's a really complicated situation and I wouldn't take advice from anyone who isn't an employment lawyer. But the letter that Temple sent out is probably going to ge…

> But the letter that Temple sent out is probably going to get Temple into some trouble for the reason identified by your parent comment.

It's certainly gotten them into reputational trouble. I don't think they'll get into legal trouble until there is an actual harm when either the fine is charged, or a registration is blocked. Courts don't generally rule on hypotheticals.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#133

Post by munk-a »

ETH_start wrote: post #97

There is no good reason at all for society to accept and institutionalize the sense of entitlement that unionizing workers have. You don't get any moral right to extra-contractual benefits just because you agree to an employment contract. Almost all of the problems society has emanate from the ideological narratives of victimhood (e.g. the superficially plausible but fundamentally fallacious notion that parties with…

Along the same line of argument - why do employers feel entitled to continuously cut the effective wages of employees? The real wage in America has been on a steady decline while worker productivity has been increasing.

Why do these employers get to play the victimhood card when denying employees fair benefits and wages?

One of the benefits the unions is asking for is an extension of parental leave (maternity leave but for both parents). Grad students are currently allotted five days - a week after giving birth they're expected to be enthusiastically back at worth.

I loathe this entitlement/victimhood argument because it's absolutely baseless - nobody is entitled to anything at all - no higher being came down and said "And thine workers shalt have two weeks of vacation gaining an additional week every five years" - things like those are benefits that are fought for and strikes are one of the ways we fight.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#134

Post by dingusdew »

fsckboy wrote: post #103
TillE wrote: post #5

As various lawyers have commented on Twitter, this seems like an insanely blatant violation of labor laws. Just a straight up written confession of illegal retaliation. Unless they have some obscure exemption that nobody else knows about, I cannot imagine how the university's legal counsel signed off on this.

> some obscure exemption for-profit companies do not have to pay strikers wages and benefits while they are on strike. Unions have strike funds they use for that.* When workers go on strike, they want their absence to disrupt the profit making of the business, that is their leverage; but they sacrifice to do it. Part of the claim in this current "unionize graduate students" drive is that they do work and get paid an…

[dead]

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#135

Post by secabeen »

kenjackson wrote: post #83
secabeen wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But look at this closely, with engagement. Currently, they are on strike, so tuition remissions cannot be issued. If that remains the case until March 6th, they will need to pay. If the strike is resolved before March 6th, and then they still refuse to issue the remissions, that would be a significant violation.

Actually they are saying the remission will not be issued even if they end the strike now. They are claiming they gave them fair warning.

If true, that is reprehensible.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#136

Post by komali2 »

BobbyJo wrote: post #120
munk-a wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a business but arguably it should be more focused on education and community enrichment than pure profits. Not everything in life needs to be focused on profit.

It's far easier to optimize for profit then theoretical ideals. The issue here isn't that they are optimizing for profit, the issue is that incentives have put that pursuit at odds with the university's core mission (education/community), as opposed to keeping it aligned with it. Pursuit of profit should keep you accountable for the services you provide, not detract from them.

So it's easier to optimize for profit, so what?

How can your core mission be education but "you're optimizing for profit?" Either your core mission is education or it isn't.

I feel like this is the kind of goal setting miss I see businesses make all the time. They'll be doing be doing some version of the ubiquitous value setting activity, and as ideas are pitched someone will be like "wait, isn't our most basic value to just make money?" Sure, whatever, but what does that tell us? A distraction. If money is really so important, just remember the story of the new CEO of iirc a failing iron production business that repeatedly answered the board's questions on how he'll turn profit with "we're going to be the safest iron production business in America." The goal was achieved by fostering a culture of transparency, adopting new technology like emails for internal flat hierarchy communication, etc, and it did become the safest, but also highly profitable.

Persuit of profit alone justifies short term behavior constantly. The firing of 20% of your workforce could be seen as justifiable when your goal is persuit of profit.

Basically I think it's wrong to try to go cross eyed having "persuit of profit" always there while also trying to set some other "idealistic" goal. Just stay focused!

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#137

Post by munk-a »

pxc wrote: post #111
munk-a wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are reports from strikers trying to refill medication that the medical benefit suspension has already unilaterally gone into effect. The university has gone ahead with their threats in that regard (which is especially shitty since it's pretty standard in the US to give employees a health insurance grace period on termination). I am really confused about what the university thinks they're going to get out of the…

[flagged]

Violence is never a good response as long as there are other avenues open.

I absolutely agree that Temple's actions here are loathsome, but even reciprocal violence should be avoided if possible.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#138

Post by komali2 »

throwawaysleep wrote: post #113
JKCalhoun wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses have public relations. This is a bad look.

Given the high cost of tuition, are people really going to want to pay grad students higher salaries? A lot of nice things in life require that someone make a low wage so they are affordable to you.

Require? Genuinely require? It seems to me the high cost comes from attempting to create profit margin. If the profit is basically eliminated, the person can have the high wage, and we can have the nice things.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#139

Post by elashri »

loeg wrote: post #122
legitster wrote: post #84

I'm a bit confused - striking workers don't normally retain pay and benefits. I don't understand what would make graduate students any different? If they were being punished just for organizing or demonstrating it would probably be a different matter. But I think the University probably has good legal standing here to say "we're just not compensating them for work they didn't do".

Grad student "tuition" isn't pay. It's a made up number transferred from the university to itself.

Worse than this, they charge faculty grants this amount. Beside the percentage, they take from the grant itself. On average, we are talking about the university taking anything between 50-70% of any effective money for research. The other 30% pay for student's stipend, research expenses and equipments.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#140

Post by epgui »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #100
sonofhans wrote: post #45

> “Any Temple employee that decides to strike forfeits their pay and complete benefits package,” explained Temple University senior vice president and chief operating officer Ken Kaiser. Here's the problem -- that's a business solution. This decision is intended to benefit Temple the business, not the Temple the university. The administration is too busy filing TPS reports to realize that they're curating something a…

>"This decision is intended to benefit Temple the business, not the Temple the university." More and more it seems like academics are just a front for running a hedge fund - one that gets very favorite tax treatment. Growing the endowment is the most important thing in the minds of the leadership.

Lol those aren’t academics, they’re administrators. It’s a pretty simple difference.
Post reply on HN