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International Security and Estonia 2023

raport.valisluureamet.ee

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Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#131

Post by 01ce8c91872dd6d »

O__________O wrote: post #91
luckylion wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use the term ethnic Russian-speaking minorities , but from those minorities, it's ~89% Russians, ~8% Ukrainians and ~3% Belarusians. Not sure how much Pro-Russia sentiment there is among Ukrainians in Estonia but I'd be surprised if it's significant, so it's really "Russians" in 2023, even if it was broadly "Russian-speaking" in 2014.

At this point even having a Russian speaking population is potentially a liability regardless if they’re pro-Russian or not, since Russia will just spin whatever pro-Estonian or anti-Russian sentiment they say to be propaganda and Russia will just say they obviously need to be liberated so they’re able to express their support for Russia. While only roughly 300,000 to 450,000 of 1.3 million of Estonians have ethnic t…

that sure sounds like a question in dire need of a solution!

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#132

Post by Thaxll »

Kukumber wrote: post #120

> Internally, Russia has become Soviet Union 2.0 Ok, i stopped at that line, that's when you know it's not a report but rather it's propaganda That's sad coming from Estonia

Putin vision is Soviet Union 2.0, it has been pretty clear in the last year and even before.

From the Kremlin:

"Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and co-patriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself."

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#133

Post by AdamN »

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #90
qaq wrote: post #80

I wonder why Russia gets a pass from the left and right on being pretty brutal colonial empire. Even in present day borders Russia is composed of literally hundreds of colonised nations that get exploited and brutalised for the benefit of Moscow.

it's not colonial

Take a look at Russia's eastward expansion in the 18th and 19th century.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#134

Post by sushzbdbehsh »

pelasaco wrote: post #123
sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not colonial

> it's not colonial What a lazy answer! for sure, it is colonial. During the imperial time, during soviet time and now in the east of Ukraine. In all periods, Russia tried to destroy the local population/settlements and tried to build Cossak/Russian defense lines. Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism

the Soviets liberated those colonised under the tsarists

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#135

Post by sushzbdbehsh »

papito wrote: post #114
sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not colonial

No? Who is doing the killing in Ukraine right now? A lot of them don't look Slav to me at all. Russia has built the definition of an imperial army. Once I see the moscovites dying in droves for more territory (9 time zones is never enough), we can talk more.

totally sane reply

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#137

Post by qaq »

consumer451 wrote: post #105
qaq wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly US.

How does "the left" give them a pass exactly? Until recently, both Dems and Reps were happy to fund and expand NATO, which is basically and anti-russian expansion org. Now Republicans seem to have an issue with that though. I just don't understand what you mean by "Russia has gotten a pass?"

None in russia's ruling class believes NATO is anti-russia that's a TV talking point for the masses.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#138

Post by nordsieck »

luckylion wrote: post #64
another2another wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and that's why most of Putin's vitriol and propaganda is directed against NATO, because it's a real impediment to them taking it all back. It's also interesting to see how strongly the Baltic nations and Poland are pushing to support Ukraine, since they lived long enough under the Soviet heel and they definitely don't want to get back to that. I have no idea what's up with Hungary though.

> I have no idea what's up with Hungary though. I assume it's the same thing that's up with the German far right: they consider themselves in opposition to the EU / Berlin and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. While that's also somewhat true for Poland, Poland likely calculates the risks differently based on their specific history with Russia. They don't want to become as progressive as Germany, but unlike a renewe…

> While that's also somewhat true for Poland, Poland likely calculates the risks differently based on their specific history with Russia. They don't want to become as progressive as Germany, but unlike a renewed Russian empire they don't see Western progressiveness as an existential threat to Polish independence.

IMO, another big difference is that they have both a direct border with Russia (Kaliningrad), and a larger border with Belarus - a country that is fine with Russia launch an invasion from their territory. When you're next to a country that is openly talking about reforming the USSR by force, and is actively in the process thereof, it can be pretty scary.

In contrast, Hungary is sufficiently far away from Russia that they can afford to focus more energy on more immediate rivals.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#139

Post by blub »

asimpletune wrote: post #17
paganel wrote: post #5

[flagged]

The thing is that nonetheless every war ever has ended as part of a diplomatic process. When this doesn’t happen you have something like the Korean War, which is technically still going on. Also it’s bonkers that someone thinks Ukraine is untrustworthy this situation. Didn’t they give up all their nuclear weapons in a signed treaty under the guarantee that Russia promised to respect their territorial integrity? Doesn…

Nukes are an irrelevant issue that keeps getting brought up. Ukraine were pressured by Russia and the US and were offered incentives to hand the nuclear weapons to Russia.

Furthermore the US even had to help Russia itself with the dismantling and disposing of some weapons over the years. It was in nobody’s interest for yet another country to have nukes when poverty and corruption would have almost certainly led to “losing” them or losing them one way or another.

You’ve commented on the historical territory out of the blue, I don’t see the parent commenter mentioning that. Keep in my mind that Ukraine possesses territory they gained after WW2 as part of the Soviet Union and there’s no indication that they want to return it. Opening up these old territorial disputes is not a good idea.

In general trying to present Ukraine as fundamentally different from Russia as far as corruption or trustworthiness goes when they were both part of the Soviet Union and very close until 2014 is dubious and not supported by facts.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#140

Post by qaq »

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #134
pelasaco wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not colonial What a lazy answer! for sure, it is colonial. During the imperial time, during soviet time and now in the east of Ukraine. In all periods, Russia tried to destroy the local population/settlements and tried to build Cossak/Russian defense lines. Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism

the Soviets liberated those colonised under the tsarists

If by liberated you mean killed 10s of millions and forced erased cultures and languages sure
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