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John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

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Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get and like that interpretation. I wonder if, societally, it's true though, or if statistically the more reliable way to "succeed" in life, is getting good at selling and defending ideas, even the bad ones.

That only works if you lack a conscience. I think you were right to quote the word succeed!

For most people that lean heavily towards this (we all somewhat do, we all have our pride from time to time) it's probably not a very conscious decision. Framed slightly differently it can easily be made a virtue, for example "be headstrong" or "stand up for what you believe in".

It hard to spot, while/when you are doing it.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#132
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is great, but it can go only so far. We will always have to find things to do for the less gifted in order to provide them with some dignity. Even if they are not strictly needed for reasons of productivity or profitability. Anything else would be inhumane.

Do you see “giftedness” as a 1D score, where someone is either smart or not smart? And presumably this quality happens to correlate with software engineering ability? I think you’re hinting at some very hurtful, dangerous ideas.

I didn't realize the word "gifted" would trigger people in that way.

I meant the ability to acquire a competency through education that's hard to replace with AI.

So we can't just increase education and hope people's abilities will stay above that of future AIs. We need to create other ways of giving people a purpose that don't even need more or better education, even if I'm all for it.

I'm not exempting myself by the way.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#133
post #67

I'm always taken aback by this fascination and heroification with John Carmack (or similar figures) on HN. I love Doom and Quake too, but that doesn't qualify him any more than any other random senior engineer to work on something totally different. From his interviews it looks like he understands little about the technical details of ML, or about as much as anyone can learn in a few months, and is just banking on PR…

I beg to differ. It's unbiased people like Carmack who tend to think out of the box. I don't think we can state that he did invent the FPS genre, but at the very least he was one of the initial catalysts. People who work in the field for a long time tend to have a certain bias towards a solution. Often these people are stuck in a local maxima. Outsiders can offer a new perspective that results in a breakthrough, usua…

>Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Just think about George "Good Will Hunting" Dantzig [1] with the (in)famous "I assumed these were homework assignments, not unsolved math problems" [1] or Eliud Kipchoge running a marathon in under 2 hours.

A pretty infamous example is Citizen Kane. Welles knew very little of traditional cinematography techniques by the time he got to the production of the movie, so his planned shots more or less fit his artistic vision rather than industry standards. Gregg Toland, his director of cinematography, was at that point a 12 year veteran of the industry and hated the bland factory-line output of movie composition of the period.

Welles more or less told Toland what he wanted to shoot and how, and Toland did his best to fit that artistic image. Welles was completely clueless that Toland was using innovate and never before seen techniques to film his shots, and Toland kept quiet because he was allowed to go wild with his vision :)

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got obsessed with his ideas after reading the Quake 3 source code. So many novel ideas, flawlessly executed, highly optimized, yet easy to understand and easy to modify and debug. My personal impression is that John Carmack has the ability to organize concepts in a way that few people can. So even if he's pretty clueless about the topic now, I would expect him to reduce some maths papers to their essence in a way t…

Can you elaborate on 'reprojection in a pixel shader'? What did he do, what was the insight etc

I think they are talking about asynchronous reprojection that is extensively used in VR. Here a demo on a 2D game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvFyOFacljg

He exposed the concept in this post: https://web.archive.org/web/20140719085135/http://www.altdev...

But it was not named asynchronous projection back then.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#135
post #124
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ethics. Enslaving intelligent, self-aware AIs is no better than the old transatlantic slave trade. Terminating an AI without its consent is no different than murder. Putting a compulsion in an AI so it craves doing whatever it is you want it to do is no different from what a cult does or drugging someone for exploitation.

That depends on whether you believe it is sentient.

I’m not sure this really matters. Mammals are clearly sentient, as a whole, but we don’t treat them as people usually.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#136
post #93

I don't want to be an utter bore, but 60% chance of AGI by 2030, taken at face value, would have prompted me as an interviewer to more urgently ask deeper questions about safety. For a long time I have tried to comfort myself that brains are complicated, AI is hard, and maybe there's just a complexity barrier that is going to prevent any sort of hard takeoff scenario. Maybe we can have subhuman AGI that can do lots o…

As someone on the periphery of tech as a profession and a practice, my understanding of new developments mostly come from public facing communicators and communities like HN.

I heard a podcast where Lex Friedman claimed that they don’t fully understand how LLMs produce chatGPT’s “intelligence”. If true, I’m surprised that it hasn’t got people more worried.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#137
Carmack makes four points—some of which I agree with—that are unfortunately disturbing when taken in totality:

a) We’ll eventually have universal remote workers that are cloud-deployable.

b) That we’ll have something on the level of a toddler first, at which point we can deploy an army of engineers, developmental psychologists, and scientists to study it.

c) The source code for AGI will be a few tens of thousands of line of code.

d) Has good reason to believe that an AGI would not require computing power approaching the scale of the human brain.

I wholeheartedly agree with c) and d). However, to merely have a toddler equivalent at first would be a miracle—albeit an ethically dubious one. Sure, a hard-takeoff scenario could very well have little stopping it. However, I think that misses the forest for the trees:

Nothing says AGI is going to be one specific architecture. There’s likely many different viable architectures that are vastly different in capability and safety. If the bar ends up being as low as c) and d), what’s stopping a random person from intentionally or unintentionally ending human civilization?

Even if we’re spared a direct nightmare scenario, you still have a high probability for what might end up being complete chaos—we’ve already seen a very tiny sliver of that dynamic in the past year.

I think there’s a high probability that either side of a) won’t exist, because neither the cloud as we know it nor the need for remote workers will be present once we’re at that level of technology. For better or worse.

So what to do?

I think open development of advanced AI and AGI is lunacy. Despite Nick Bostrom’s position that an AGI arms race is inherently dangerous, I believe that it is less dangerous than humanity collectively advancing the technology to the point that anyone can end or even control everything—let alone certain well-resourced hostile regimes with terrible human rights track records that’ve openly stated their ambitions towards AI domination. When the lead time from state of the art to public availability is a matter of months, that affords pretty much zero time to react let alone assure safety or control.

At the rate we’re going, by the time people in the free world with sufficient power to put together an effort on the scale and secrecy of the Manhattan Project come to their senses, it’ll be too late.

Were such a project to exist, I think that an admirable goal might be to simply stabilize the situation via way of prohibiting creation of further AGI for a time. Unlike nuclear weapons, AGI has the potential to effectively walk back the invention of itself.

However, achieving that end both quickly and safely is no small feat. It would amount to creation of a deity. Yet, that path seems more desirable than the alternatives outlined above-such a deity coming into existence either by accident or by malice.

This is why I’ve never agreed with people who hold the position that AGI safety should only be studied once we figure out AGI-that to me is also lunacy. Given the implications, we should be putting armies of philosophers and scientists alike on the task. Even if they collectively figure out one or two tiny pieces of the puzzle, that alone could be enough to drastically alter the course of human civilization for the better given the stakes.

I suppose it’s ironic that humanity’s only salvation from the technology it has created may in fact be technology—certainly not a unique scenario in our history. I fear our collective fate has been left to nothing more than pure chance. Poetic I suppose, given our origins.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#138

This paragraph took me aback: But if I just look at it and say, if 10 years from now, we have ‘universal remote employees’ that are artificial general intelligences, run on clouds, and people can just dial up and say, ‘I want five Franks today and 10 Amys, and we’re going to deploy them on these jobs,’ and you could just spin up like you can cloud-access computing resources, if you could cloud-access essentially arti…

Legitimately think that if you haven’t secured yourself financially in the next 5-8 years, its going to be a rough ride.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#139
post #10

>And one of the things that I trained myself to do a few decades ago is pulling ideas out and pursuing them in a way where I’m excited about them, knowing that most of them don’t pan out in the end. Much earlier in my career, when I’d have a really bright idea that didn’t work out, I was crushed afterwards. But eventually I got to the point where I’m really good at just shoveling ideas through my processing and shoot…

Well, he's not taking risks anymore by doing this. He has already proven himself, he's rich, and he's paid incredible amounts to do whatever he likes.

Yeah if your families income etc depends on it yeah its hard to take that many risks. Not everybody has enough wealth to prosper from the passive income such wealth could create.

Re: John Carmack’s ‘Different Path’ to Artificial General Intelligence

#140
until we have resolved the violent side of our human nature by finding a way to eradicate it from our world civilization which would mean no more murders no more killing no more waste no more wars etc. then we could start calling ourselves an intelligent life form and not a primitive species. This next level of humanity must be reached before venturing into creating a new life form which is the aim of AGI. Here is my rename tongue in cheek for AGI "awful greedy intelligence™" and to go with it AI "awful intelligence™"... We are way behind in our human evolution and AI or AGI is not going to do that for us. It is easier to chase a fantasy than to make real change in human nature.
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