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Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

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Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#131

Post by myfonj »

runarberg wrote: post #122
myfonj wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, while details/summary support in browsers and other user agents and tools is improving over time, it is still not perfect for ... nearly anything. Sadly. https://adrianroselli.com/2019/04/details-summary-are-not-in...

FWIW This article is almost 4 years old. When it was written 3 years hadn’t passed since Firefox had full support in Firefox 48. Meaning that more time has passed since this article was published then the time between Firefox support and the publication.

Yes, yet last update was last year and coincidentally mentions article "A details element as a burger menu is not accessible" Published on September 20th, 2022:

https://cloudfour.com/thinks/a-details-element-as-a-burger-m...

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#132

Post by micahdeath »

moffkalast wrote: post #110
detritus wrote: post #12

> "Over the last few decades hamburger buttons have become the de facto standard to expand larger menus on smaller devices. They are so ubiquitous that every user immediately knows what they are when seen in the top left or right corner, which makes them a good user interface element choice." "Last Few Decades"? Eh? A decade.. perhaps? "Every User Immediately"? This is not at all my experience. Perhaps with younger u…

They even wrote the following: > Put yourself in the shoes of a visually impaired person and think how frustrating it must be to get on a page that doesn’t allow you to open the main menu! I just have to laugh at that kind of level of delusion. As if a screen reader will be able to figure out what the menu button is when the ids, classes and tags are all filled up with generated garbage by . It's not like the icon is…

As someone with less dexterity, I agree.

I also use 1440x900 on 24 inch monitors (I'm on the screen for 14 hours a day and don't like eye fatigue.) (1280x720 on 15 inch laptops -- most sites think I'm on mobile so even more clicks)

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#133

Post by micahdeath »

anthk wrote: post #121
reaperducer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The icon was designed and introduced in 1981. "Designed and introduced" on the Xerox Star, which almost nobody used. It was quickly forgotten for 30 years, and only came back into use in 2009, according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger_button

This. These younger users thinking the 00's and the 90's where like their child years are pretty much deluded. And it's odd because you can emulate W98, W2k, WXP and old GNU/Linux distros with damn ease in order to understand that no wm or desktop environment offerred a hamburger menu. And, trust me, lots of people tried zillions on WM's, tons of FVWM2 setups with bizarre configs highly divergent between themselves a…

I think the (OS name here) start menu is the hamburger menu. Except on mac, they have several icons that are hamburger menus =/ It's common, just different icon.

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#134

Post by micahdeath »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #69
at-fates-hands wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an accessibility engineer and hamburger menus on mobile are almost always completely inaccessible. A majority of the time they need to be fixed in order to accommodate visually impaired users or users who depend on VoiceOver or other screen reading technologies. Its practically a default issue at this point.

What is the preferred design?

Simplify the navigation. Do you really need a "Start Menu" on a web page? (Sorry, I think Hamburger menus are start menus.)

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#135

Post by runarberg »

myfonj wrote: post #131
runarberg wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW This article is almost 4 years old. When it was written 3 years hadn’t passed since Firefox had full support in Firefox 48. Meaning that more time has passed since this article was published then the time between Firefox support and the publication.

Yes, yet last update was last year and coincidentally mentions article "A details element as a burger menu is not accessible" Published on September 20th, 2022: https://cloudfour.com/thinks/a-details-element-as-a-burger-m...

I don’t think we should take this article at face value. Putting a heading inside the is weird and the aforementioned article recommends against it (most experienced web devs know not to put headings inside interactive elements other then ).

On top of that we have people in this threat that use screen readers and claim that they have no problems with / which aren’t present in other elements[1].

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34547915

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#137

Post by Domenic_S »

reaperducer wrote: post #66
Domenic_S wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fun little meme, but it's not all that accurate. Something like half of mothers report latching or other nipple-baby interface problems in some studies [0]. What's more, suckling is a hardwired reflex , not something that's intuited , so the quote also misunderstands the nature of intuition. FWIW I also used to use that quote, until I had a child and saw firsthand [well, second-hand as it was my wife doing the…

Because not every baby figures it out the first time does not mean it is not intuitive for the other babies that do figure it out immediately. It's become more of a meme to be needlessly contrarian, and ignore the fact that billions of babies actually do know this interface intuitively.

Ironically in your haste to be contrarian to me, you failed to read the statistics. Billions of babies do know intuitively and billions more don’t. The meme is actually pretty harmful for new parents, who may think their child must be defective if they can’t figure out “the only intuitive interface”, when the reality is that it’s extremely common.

But beyond that (and this is covered in the stack overflow thread) is that it confuses intuition and reflex. Reflex is hard-wired and the stimulus often doesn’t even hit the brain - think a doctor tapping a kneecap. Suckling is like this, which is why a baby will root if you stroke its cheek - obviously there’s no nipple on the finger, yet the baby’s reflex kicks in nonetheless.

Intuition/intuitive on the other hand, in the context of UI design, means the user can without thinking or with very little conscious thought understand how to use the interface.

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#138

Post by autoexec »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #124
Domenic_S wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fun little meme, but it's not all that accurate. Something like half of mothers report latching or other nipple-baby interface problems in some studies [0]. What's more, suckling is a hardwired reflex , not something that's intuited , so the quote also misunderstands the nature of intuition. FWIW I also used to use that quote, until I had a child and saw firsthand [well, second-hand as it was my wife doing the…

> What's more, suckling is a hardwired reflex , not something that's intuited The fact that suckling is a hardwired reflex is what makes using the nipple intuitive. You use it by doing the same thing you think you should do.

> The fact that suckling is a hardwired reflex is what makes using the nipple intuitive. You use it by doing the same thing you think you should do.

In this case it gets used automatically without choice or thought. Anything shoved into a baby's mouth triggers it. It's not intuition, just reflex. Intuition implies understanding.

It's the difference between "I know that what this is for and how to use it" vs "I have no idea what this is and I have no control over doing it, this is just something that is happening to me"

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#139

Post by autoexec »

djbusby wrote: post #54
unsupp0rted wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems people don't explore at all. There's no "I wonder what would happen if" impulse, or there's an "I'd better not just in case" worry.

And the lack of tooltips on hover. WTF, it's missing on loads of big properties.

Mobile platforms are the worst when it comes to having any understanding at all over where a link (or linked element) will take you and I don't think that's unintentional.

Re: Accessible hamburger buttons without JavaScript

#140

Post by autoexec »

reaperducer wrote: post #24
detritus wrote: post #12

> "Over the last few decades hamburger buttons have become the de facto standard to expand larger menus on smaller devices. They are so ubiquitous that every user immediately knows what they are when seen in the top left or right corner, which makes them a good user interface element choice." "Last Few Decades"? Eh? A decade.. perhaps? "Every User Immediately"? This is not at all my experience. Perhaps with younger u…

"Every User Immediately"? This is not at all my experience. Perhaps with younger users I agree. I put a hamburger menu in an in-house tool I built last year. Everyone in that department is between 22 and 30, with one guy over 50. I always stand with the users when my new products are deployed, so I was in the room when nobody recognized what the hamburger menu was. I ended up changing it to the word "Menu" and everyo…

I don't care much for hamburger menus but the vertical ellipsis drives me nuts. The standard icon represents a list of lines of text. What the hell is a list of dots supposed to signify?
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