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Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

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Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#131

Post by akira2501 »

bsder wrote: post #126
winrid wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need smart roads more than smart cars. Ah yes, trains. :)

It would be very nice to be able to "link" my electric car into a convoy of other electric cars at say "San Diego" and allow the system to take said convoy to somewhere in "Los Angeles" and reassert control. This would solve a lot of the "last mile" problems that we currently have with train stations in the US (need to park at one terminus, need to get picked up at the other, can't deal with accidents on rails, etc.)…

They have trains you can just drive your car into. It's quite popular in Europe.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#132

Post by [deleted] »

midoridensha wrote: post #82
foepys wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany (where this system is already available) Mercedes takes liability and the system gives the driver a 10 second advanced warning before they have to take over. It's also only available on certain stretches of the Autobahn. If the system allows you to enable it, you can use it. The German law allows autonomous driving up to 130 km/h although Mercedes currently only allows their system to work up to 60 km/h.

>The German law allows autonomous driving up to 130 km/h although Mercedes currently only allows their system to work up to 60 km/h. That's weird; usually laws are behind the tech, not ahead of it.

[deleted]

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#133

Post by Dylan16807 »

flakeoil wrote: post #100
cypress66 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an eyes off autonomy level. So you can read a book while it does its thing. It however only works in a very narrow set of conditions. Tesla doesn't have anything that's eyes off yet. You need to monitor the road. Tesla seems to be going for breadth first (FSD beta working everywhere and doing every manouver) and not depth (autonomy only for highway without changing lanes but reliable enough for eyes off)

If that's the case, then I think Mercedes chose the best option. It's when doing long drives on highways it's really useful to be able to read a book, work, play a board game with the passengers, talking in a focused way, nap etc. It's most likely also much easier to make a car drive autonomously on highways versus on smaller roads, city roads, dirt roads etc.

It's not safe to nap, but you can do the rest of that.

They're promising 10 seconds of warning when the car wants you to take over.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#134

Post by lolinder »

czzr wrote: post #113
rsync wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't handle mode switching in this manner. If you are responsible for two tons of metal flying down the road at 70 mph you need to be fully engaged in that task. We can handle being passengers and we can handle being drivers but we can't switch in a split second. So my contention is that level-X where X is less than "I can fall asleep in the back seat" is a deadly valley between unassisted driving and passive pas…

You’re correct, but this is the point of this announcement - 10secs to reorient yourself is a lot of time - it’s vastly different to “oops, you’re about to crash in 0.5s, sorry, you’re on your own”

10 seconds may be a lot or a little, depending on what you were doing. Humans are bad at grayscale rules and time estimation, so it's far safer to say "you're either a passenger or a driver" than to say "you're either a passenger or a driver or a person doing something that can easily be switched away from in 10 seconds".

A few examples of activities that could be hard to switch away from in time:

* Eating breakfast with food in my lap and the spoon halfway to my mouth.

* Typing an email.

* Reading a book.

Some of these could allow you to physically have your hands on the wheel in time, but then you still need to context switch your brain and then get up to date on the road.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#135

Post by akira2501 »

czzr wrote: post #113
rsync wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't handle mode switching in this manner. If you are responsible for two tons of metal flying down the road at 70 mph you need to be fully engaged in that task. We can handle being passengers and we can handle being drivers but we can't switch in a split second. So my contention is that level-X where X is less than "I can fall asleep in the back seat" is a deadly valley between unassisted driving and passive pas…

You’re correct, but this is the point of this announcement - 10secs to reorient yourself is a lot of time - it’s vastly different to “oops, you’re about to crash in 0.5s, sorry, you’re on your own”

Presuming it can always afford you that 10s interval. That's quite the assumption to give to drivers trusting theirs and others lives to this system.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#136

Post by micwag »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #84
berkes wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly. But companies will offer this only if the downside risk is bearable. Which, (IANAL) is quite certainly much bigger in the US than in Germany.

> companies will offer this only if the downside risk is bearable Is the liability in Germany uncapped?

Didn't find anything, but I imagine it's similar to normal car insurance. In Germany most insurances are capped at 100m (legal minimum is 7.7m). Most expensive accident in history was 32m.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#137

Post by Dylan16807 »

Karellen wrote: post #109
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how does this compare with Tesla? Mercedes appears to be indemnifying drivers when its tech is engaged. That's frankly the bigger first for me than SAE Level 3.

But the level they're selling still requires that the driver be able to resume control when notified. So the "the car notified the driver to take over, disengaged, and shortly following that the driver crashed the car" narrative is still possible, even when the "shortly following that" might actually be "0.1s later". Sorry, our tech wasn't engaged at the time, you're actually the one at fault here. Yes, the standard…

Such a narrative would be immediately called out. I really don't think that kind of trickery is something to worry about.

> things can change dramatically in a few seconds at highway speeds

In the immediate term, "brake enough not to hit things" is a very good default response and a computer should be better than a human at doing so.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#138

Post by rogersnm »

Toumassa wrote: post #119

Very cool, still dont understand why electric cars got to be ugly ... The design is more like Prius than S-class.. Sorry for being off topic.

Electric cars struggle with range limitations (compared to their non-electric counterparts), and so manufacturers try to maximise range by reducing the drag co-efficient as much as possible, even at the cost of aesthetics (everything turns into a smooth blob).

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#139

Post by ricardobayes »

Toumassa wrote: post #119

Very cool, still dont understand why electric cars got to be ugly ... The design is more like Prius than S-class.. Sorry for being off topic.

Current cars' aerodynamics are optimized on downforce, range comes way down the line. EVs are mostly optimized for range. Blobfish, or water droplet shape is the most aerodyanamic one out there. Once manufacturers figure out battery efficiency, I think we'll see more aesthetic cars out there again. Prius was a notable exception because it also focused on range and efficiency.

Re: Mercedes is the first automaker to offer Level 3 self-driving in the US

#140

Post by ricardobayes »

ahartmetz wrote: post #127
Toumassa wrote: post #119

Very cool, still dont understand why electric cars got to be ugly ... The design is more like Prius than S-class.. Sorry for being off topic.

I kind of like it, it's moving away from the overly aggressive looking style of most modern cars. Maybe we can have cars for adults again instead of these Transformers-style designs. A shape that is fit for purpose (aerodynamic) is part of that. BMW and Mercedes switch places periodically in technical and design leadership, and I think it's Mercedes's time. BMW has been going off the rails recently...

As a kid I remember standing in ave when a new car came out, very few cars have that effect anymore (on me). New car design generally is pretty meh nowadays. Seems mid-2000s leading up to 2014-15 was peak.
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