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A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

disruptingjapan.com

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Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#131
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes?

@dang I’d look into this. Edit: There are two accounts that are happy to publicly disagree with me within seconds of eachother, and three-six that are are happy to downvote privately within those same seconds. Maybe I’m magically guilty of having The Wrong Take or there are some people that will kneejerk use their network of accounts to downvote things that aren’t useful to their buddies.

I had written a sarcastic response, but I'll be nice instead. Don't you think two people could independently see that you missed a joke and come up with the very generically phrased response of "isn't it a joke?" to point this out? I mean it's four words. It's certainly a more plausible explanation than being some sort of grand conspiracy involving sockpuppet accounts.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#132
post #77

Speaking as a Japanese-American, I personally think the biggest problem with Japanese programmers comes down to the Japanese being too crafty and elitist. What do I mean by this? Basically: If you're a wizard at peeling the skin off an apple with your knife you never need an apple peeler; consequently, you never get a good peeler industry going. Meanwhile, Americans manufacture the best apple peelers because they can…

That's my story with the dish washer: I find it is a lot easier just wash dish as soon as it is used, it does not take more than a few seconds for a plate, and my dishwasher are only used as a place to dry plates. I had thought about the same concept you mentioned here when comparing eastern and western culture, and I thought it might come from diet, but I didn't backup with any research.

Dishwashers make sense if you have a lot of dishes, and make a practice of filling the dishwasher before washing. For a single person, this can take many days. The total amount of water and time ends up being less by using the dishwasher.

However, if you have a small number of dishes so that you can't afford to wait 3-7 days between washings, and need to clean them daily, the dishwasher makes no sense.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's any comfort: Switzerland invented* the quartz watch. But swiss watchmakers were too good for that. * at least according to how swiss tell this story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_clock#History differs substantially. (but does mention Longines ca. 1966, which may have been how the story I heard arose? In any case, these days Longines has long since been bought by Swatch...)

Kodak invented digital photography. History is full of examples where people and companies couldn't see or capture the huge value of their inventions.

Xerox's PARC has to be the biggest example of a company not capturing the value of its inventions.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#134

The key part to me: > But the rest of the word was moving in a different direction. The rest of the world was moving away from dedicated hardware and towards innovative software running on standard hardware platforms. This piece is about Japan vs the world, but looking at countries other than the US I'm not sure this narrative works. For instance did the UK become a Software behemoth ? France ? Germany ? Brazil ? Ind…

The euro-america centric view in claiming that India failed in software is simply absurd. India has giant software companies powering one of the most advanced governance, finance and business societies and not to mention a major destination for the west to outsource software jobs!

We're not talking about straight failure. There's giant companies all over the world and sure they'll produce software.

But the FAANG/MANGA/Whatever acronym for the five/six near monopolies aren't from India. If I'm in Korea and tomorrow I want to use a cloud provider, I won't choose an Indian one short of wanting to market to India. But chances are it will be an US one. That's the gap I am pointing at.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#135

The key part to me: > But the rest of the word was moving in a different direction. The rest of the world was moving away from dedicated hardware and towards innovative software running on standard hardware platforms. This piece is about Japan vs the world, but looking at countries other than the US I'm not sure this narrative works. For instance did the UK become a Software behemoth ? France ? Germany ? Brazil ? Ind…

France had more than ok software company. Bull for instance. Ubisoft and a bazillion other video game company. Alcatel / Lucent / Thales for industrial stuff. For the deepness of my ass I would say failure was tree fold : - France like a good old top down approach. That … mostly don’t work for software. - France decided to listen to our American friends and sell the familly heirloom to the market. ( I’m bitter on thi…

Yes. Also France made a real big effort to protect its agriculture, wine and luxury industry.

LVHM grew and flourished, but there was no love for the software industry. I kinda think there was no alternative scenario where it would have worked out, culturally most people really don't give a damn.

Also having a smaller internal market makes it harder to bootstrap new ideas to a decent size before getting it out. Even now successful startups might target France and Spain, but going beyond seems to be a very hard sell while the EU is supposed to make it easier in theory.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#136

One of the key issues of Japanese software is that most companies don't rethink problems and processes to suit software, they try make software around an existing process. Most Japanese companies will just try to automate, or digitize some type of manual process and keep the people involved, I'd say just to hang onto jobs because firing people in Japan is pretty much impossible. Recently while visiting Japan, I tried…

> but your credit card is "Ella Smith", the "people" won't accept it and their web app does weird things

Ha.

I live on street with a long but not that long name (18 chars for what it worth). I recently encountered a site what didn't want to accept my address because the full address was way too long.

> credit card actually is written as SMITH ELLAMARY

And here I am who specifically writes BANK NAME in the CARDHOLDER input instead of card holders name where I can.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#137
post #20

I disagree with everything in this article post-2000. There were no "software gatekeepers" preventing Japanese software from flourishing on the PC or Mac. I'm not sure what the author is talking about there. So there's still the unexplained question of why Japanese software is still bad, in 2023. And I think the answer is the language barrier. Windows and Mac dominate the world's computer systems, and the development…

> Windows and Mac dominate the world's computer systems, and the development tools for those environments are English-centric. The translations are lacking or no existent. The struggle of a Japanese developer to make an app is greater than that of a primarily English-speaking developer.

The lack of translations is true for almost every country and culture apart from the natively English-speaking ones. Some western languages such as German or French might get more in terms of translated (or natively written) documentation and teaching materials but many smaller ones have next to none. I've also seen software development materials with translations to Japanese or Chinese and nothing else (beside English).

I can't remember the last time I read any software development material or used software development tools in my native language.

There may still be some cultural differences that could lead to there being more or less of a language barrier, of course. Other languages may be closer to English, at least in terms of the writing system. In some cultures people might be less inclined to learn English as a second language well enough to be comfortable than in other cultures. Japan, having a large economy with a large domestic market as well as a strong language identity and a relatively homogeneous culture, might be one of those. (I seem to remember that, anecdotally, some highly educated Japanese people I met in the past were surprisingly uncomfortable speaking English, but I'm not sure how much of that was due to actual skill and how much it was about confidence or a lack of experience.)

But the anglocentrism of development tools and culture alone isn't enough to explain a difference between Japan and many other countries.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#138
IMO the Japanese failed at Software Development because they never thought of it as distinct/different from and more important than Hardware that is used to run it. It requires a certain degree of forward abstract thinking which they unfortunately missed. They then compounded this mistake by staying on it for decades.

As an example, in the late 90's i was part of a group developing a Office Software Suite for a Japanese Company. The specification they gave us was very clearly done by some Hardware Engineer who had just learned OOD/OOP. All classes were named like hardware part nos. eg. MDK_C1001, MDK_C1002 etc. All methods were declared pure virtual in C++. We had to convince them to throw out their specifications, sit with us and re-design it together (and implemented using Visual C++/MFC framework).

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#139
What this comes down to is simply economics and incentives, and how those economics and incentives are changed within and from outside by other forces. That is it.

even the concept of "Galapagos effect"is easily explained by government created market distortions.

1. Japan was a closed country for~250 years, until the US "Gunboats of democracy" opened up Japan under Commodore Perry threatening to flatten Japanese cities. Prior to that there was restricted trade/trading posts with the Dutch, Portuguese, and then Germans.

2. With the US military threats, Japan side the treaty with the US and realized pandora's box was open, they say the Western operations, war and colonies and said, time to get moving. Thus, German and Prussia in particular suited Japan well culturally and in many aspects - so this tight tie up, creating or promoting trading companies or families (Zaibatsu) & forming their own colonies, China, Taiwan, Korea, etc.

3. There are many other factors within the run up to WWII and after but Japan was a major innovator, especially after WWII as central control imploded - think Honda, Sony, etc. the issue is that as PCs came into play Japan was highly centralized again & there were numerous issues of lacking vc or risk capital, social risks, financial risk, labor mobility ,etc. And even today most software devs cannot hardcore sell - imagine 1970, 1980, 1990s.

4. The native ERP market was highly customized (mostly SAP) using SIer's and they wanted it specific to their unique workflows - the old 80% of what I want is not enough - funny enough that is a competitive advantage again.

5. At same time, most of foreign program work was either L10N or integration ,sintalls, support/maintenance for the foreign software vendor - Oracle, SAP, MSFT, etc.

6. Btw the time we got to 1990s, Japan had many innovations in software, BUT this ran into a wall - it had a horrible startup ecosystem and so it was occupied by ossified rent-seeking incumbents like Sony, who fought their own engineers. Sony was the original Apple, Akio Morita the original Steve Jobs, including taking the most important case, Sony vs Universal Studios to the US supreme court and winning. Ipod, imac, etc. are simply the 2.0 or 3.0 version of the sony innovation products. I have interviewed a dozen of these engineers and managers going back to 2006. And also other interviews state side of how products like Slingbox/Slingmedia were just sony products and so on.

7. At this point the social risk, the financial risk, the career risks and labor mobility of joining a startup or high grow firm in nascent industry are greatly reduced, more programming resources than ever, smart hard workers, it is just the opportunities -- opportunities that were artificially restricted by ossified rent seeking incumbents using regulator capture.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#140
post #77

Speaking as a Japanese-American, I personally think the biggest problem with Japanese programmers comes down to the Japanese being too crafty and elitist. What do I mean by this? Basically: If you're a wizard at peeling the skin off an apple with your knife you never need an apple peeler; consequently, you never get a good peeler industry going. Meanwhile, Americans manufacture the best apple peelers because they can…

> This I feel is why Japanese programmers continue to be utterly inept Ahh. This explains why Perl is so much better than Ruby. Makes sense now.

Was that sarcasm or genuine preference? Either way I'd love to know what drives your opinion in Python vs. Perl!
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