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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#131

Post by Swenrekcah »

alphabettsy wrote: post #118
hristov wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With an ICE car, if you park regularly in very cold weather, your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason and it can take a long time to figure it out or you will need a trip to the mechanic. Or you may need a massive and expensive repair. Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics t…

> Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. > I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately. Engines do not freeze i…

> People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles.

I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#132

Post by nradov »

jtc331 wrote: post #40
nradov wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hardly crazy to expect that the car should display an accurate range estimate based on the current temperature.

Gas car range predictions are also regularly nonsensical. I thought this was well understood.

Perhaps that used to be a problem. The range estimates for gasoline cars that I've owned and rented in the past few years have been accurate to within a few percent, even in cold weather.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#133

Post by lb1lf »

jiggawatts wrote: post #115
jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start. Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.

I had a Lada Niva 4WD back in the day; part of the winterization package was an extremely heavy sump.

If you perused the manual, you found out why - it suggested you light a small fire under it to serve as an outback engine heater.

The Niva was, uh, an interesting car to own, but was amazing whenever conditions turned to shite. Nothing short of an anti tank mine would stop it.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#134

Post by cwalv »

jackmott wrote: post #29
d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

You only need a 220volt plug, then its fine. You can also leave it overnight just fine. I think plugging a 110v during the cold is kind of an edge case, the car tries to charge but it makes thing worse. Maybe a software update would cure that.

> I think plugging a 110v during the cold is kind of an edge case, the car tries to charge but it makes thing worse

I doubt if it could make things worse, despite what the range indicator says.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#135

Post by nimbius »

speaking as a professional diesel engine mechanic --and in the midst of this midwest snowstorm-- winter is hard on everything.

-electrics with proper planning work well, but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. a tesla battery still has easily enough juice to send you to jesus even at -50c.

-gas engines need block heaters or its like starting an engine in a tar pit, and the mileage takes a 20-30% haircut.

-diesel engines are finnicky beasts in the cold. most of your environmental reclamation stuff has to be heated along with the block, and anti gelling agents are hell on them. mileage and waxy soot particulate from stacks are equally bad. california has special requirements and bans on certain gel agents as well.

in colder places like nunavut or the northern territories, heavy truck drivers without reliable electrical power light a small fire under their engine to warm it. not for the faint hearted.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#136

Post by rcxdude »

nimbius wrote: post #135

speaking as a professional diesel engine mechanic --and in the midst of this midwest snowstorm-- winter is hard on everything. -electrics with proper planning work well, but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. a tesla battery still has easily enough juice to send you to jesus even at -50c. -gas engines need blo…

> but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear.

oh wow, that is a pretty dangerous bit of misinformation

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#137

Post by danw1979 »

thinking4real wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular EV user here - plugging it in is something you do every time you park, the way you lock your doors. It takes five seconds. Press the «open charge port» button on the charging cable and stick it in the charging socket. Done.

I’m cracking up that you’re making this sound so simple and matter of fact, but reading this description of how one is “supposed” to charge their EV makes me realize i’m many years from wanting one. Honestly, it’s kind of a joke how badly people want to defend the tech despite its current shortcomings.

I think the GP was saying “it doesn’t have shortcomings”, not trying to defend any that actually exist.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#138

Post by akmarinov »

cwalv wrote: post #116
jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#139

Post by bumby »

GalenErso wrote: post #32
brianglick wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage. Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

There’s a reason why many northern areas (esp. Canada) have diesel trucks that come equipped with a plug-in block heater.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#140

Post by eldaisfish »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #98
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in place that routinely goes below freezing in winter. I’ve never noticed gas mileage change because of temperature. I would definitely notice a difference of 8 MPG. Where do you get that info? Is it personal experience? If so, where do you live?

Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds. Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.

this is the textbook definition of confidently incorrect.

Winter fuel efficiency is worse because of a winter fuel mix, not because of air density.

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