Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities • Hacker News Board

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#131

Post by rapjr9 » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

So far I haven't seen anyone mention the big deal here, that Starshield is offering to take over ANY satellites communications entirely using lasers. A customer no longer has to include a radio system on their satellite (unless that is the whole point of the satellite), just a small laser and gimbal. This seems like a major savings in weight and power. Send your satellite up and join the existing network and you get communication to your other satellites in orbit (via laser), to the ground (via RF), and to aircraft (via RF), worldwide. All of it point-to-point which makes it very difficult to interrupt or intercept. This is a space internet, an internet for things in space, though only open to wealthy customers who can afford to launch things into orbit. I quote:

INTEROPERABILITY

Starlink's inter-satellite laser communications terminal, which is the only communications laser operating at scale in orbit today, can be integrated onto partner satellites to enable incorporation into the Starshield network.

End quote.

Depending on how large the weight and power savings are this could cause a proliferation of satellites. It may require satellites to be in an orbit near that of the Starlink satellites, or maybe not. Depends on what angle range the laser gimbals cover. I would guess each Starlink satellite with lasers already has multiple lasers plus backup lasers, so dedicating the spare ones to providing communication for other satellites might be easy. The laser/gimbals may already be time shared to spread wear evenly and make sure they are working.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#132

Post by tetrep » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

wmf wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly they're using a different definition of end. All wireless and shared-media (DOCSIS, PON) protocols should be encrypted out of respect for customer metadata privacy.

Encryption should be at a higher layer, preferably from the end client to end the server, to provide any security. To be fair, the fact that the data is being transmitted wirelessly does mean that encryption is 100% required or else someone could easily spy on you.

Wireless has nothing to do with it, you always need encryption: https://blog.encrypt.me/2013/11/05/ssl-added-and-removed-her...

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#133

Post by euroderf » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

rzimmerman wrote: post #68

It sounds like they’re trying to sell two things: 1. Hosted payloads, where DoD entities pay to have something (telescope, Sigint equipment, whatever) strapped on to a starlink satellite with comms all figured out for them. Probably a good deal if your stuff fits on that big flat satellite. SpaceX starlink launches do sway the launch market significantly enough (offering a launch at half othe price or less, beholden…

They split the arpanet into a military net and a civilian net.

Time to do the same for starlink eh.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#134

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 2:07 PM UTC

greesil wrote: post #88

SpaceX is so cool. Why does Elon have to be the way he is?

Meh, history is rife with people on the leading edge that have a tinge of madness. It’s probably required since they are extreme outliers in behavior otherwise.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#135

Post by Retric » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

beambot wrote: post #104

rzimmerman wrote: post #68

It sounds like they’re trying to sell two things: 1. Hosted payloads, where DoD entities pay to have something (telescope, Sigint equipment, whatever) strapped on to a starlink satellite with comms all figured out for them. Probably a good deal if your stuff fits on that big flat satellite. SpaceX starlink launches do sway the launch market significantly enough (offering a launch at half othe price or less, beholden…

If anything, the war in Ukraine has demonstrated how useful something like starlink can be. It makes sense that the DoD would gladly pay up to create a dedicated, hardened network for its own utility with specialized tweaks...

The DoD already had something like Starlink. SpaceX is trying to sell a lower cost version of the same thing, but cost savings isn’t that compelling for congress who sees costs as much as a feature as a bug.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#136

Post by dotnet00 » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

rapjr9 wrote: post #131

So far I haven't seen anyone mention the big deal here, that Starshield is offering to take over ANY satellites communications entirely using lasers. A customer no longer has to include a radio system on their satellite (unless that is the whole point of the satellite), just a small laser and gimbal. This seems like a major savings in weight and power. Send your satellite up and join the existing network and you get…

Practically speaking it doesn't really eliminate the need for a radio system entirely, since you would still want a control interface that isn't dependent on such a sensitive technology (ie you would want to be able to fix the satellite if some software or tracking error makes it unable to accurately target a Starlink satellite).

What this does mean is that the bandwidth restrictions for transmitting larger amounts of data become a bit looser and become much harder for adversaries to detect and track.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#137

Post by skorpeon87 » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 3:24 PM UTC

georgeg23 wrote: post #40

jltsiren wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three things: 1) That way you would have a single Starship launching a single kill vehicle in more than 1000 pieces. In order to be truly independent, each kill vehicle needs significant delta-v on its own, which lowers the number of kill vehicles by two orders of magnitude. 2) Starship has pretty weak engines for this task. While the missile used to launch the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle reaches ~10 km/s in less tha…

The kill vehicles are staged in orbit just like Starlink satellites.. See Brilliant Pebbles.

You're talking about boost-phase interceptors, not mid-course interceptors. Starship to replace GMD (as suggested by credit_guy) doesn't make much sense, but Starship does have the technical ability to launch a massive constellation of space-based interceptors for quite cheap. With Starship, it should be possible to put tens of thousands of interceptors into LEO, and to rapidly replenish the constellation.

As for the "general consensus that weapons in space are bad", there's also a general consensus that war is bad, so we should all breath easy! Wait no.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#138

Post by skorpeon87 » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #135

beambot wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, the war in Ukraine has demonstrated how useful something like starlink can be. It makes sense that the DoD would gladly pay up to create a dedicated, hardened network for its own utility with specialized tweaks...

The DoD already had something like Starlink. SpaceX is trying to sell a lower cost version of the same thing, but cost savings isn’t that compelling for congress who sees costs as much as a feature as a bug.

> The DoD already had something like Starlink.

The NDSA doesn't actually exist yet, and SpaceX is presently the only company that could launch the larger versions of it.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#139

Post by skorpeon87 » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

p1mrx wrote: post #95

Ancalagon wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such low orbits should prevent that being a long term problem. I also wonder how much more difficult it is to target satellites going this fast than say the one China destroyed a few years ago?

> Such low orbits should prevent that being a long term problem. Wouldn't a military power be more willing to trigger Kessler syndrome for 5 years than 500?

Probably. In a war I don't think they'd hesitate, since they've already demonstrated their willingness to cause huge clouds of LEO debris with simple tests. But the upside is that it's much less of a problem for the rest of humanity. Losing access to space for a few years is certainly not something we want, but in the context of a major war between two space powers it will be among the least of our worries.

Note also that "Kessler Syndrome" is not a binary condition. As debris gets worse, the expected lifespan of satellites in those orbits drops, and as does the success rate of launching rockets through the effected altitudes. However these don't drop off to zero immediately. If the satellite is important enough to justify the elevated risk and additional expense then you can simply plan to launch several of them to get one of them through. Manned missions would be a bad idea, but odds are good that vital weather satellites and the like would be kept aloft.

Re: Starshield: Secured satellite network for government entities

#140

Post by skorpeon87 » Sat, Dec 03, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #35

mensetmanusman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is 1/10th as compromised as Tim Apple, and the DoD uses iPhones.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to compare Tim Cook to Elon Musk. Elon has demonstrated in both his public and private life that he can be very flexible with his ethics and morals if it furthers his business objectives. Tim by comparison has been pretty consistent.

The only virtue Tim Cook knows is money. Everything he pretends to believe in the context of America goes completely out the window in the context of China. Why? Because money.