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Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

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Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#131

Post by shalmanese »

yourapostasy wrote: post #127
shalmanese wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you just consume the entirety of the waste stream and then stop because it's a low value marginal add on product that doesn't drive an industry. It's not like the demand for cow manure is driving us to create brand new herds simply to output more manure.

Right now what saves us from the cobra effect with such a biofilm is hydrocarbon-based plastics are cheaper than it and the distribution and manufacturing networks are built around them. I'd be perfectly content with no concerns if there are no subsidies tampering with such biofilms; let them organically develop their own markets, manufacturing networks and supply chains, and I completely agree with you that they wil…

If you compare the price/lb of shellfish vs the price/lb of plastic packaging, it's very hard to imagine any level of subsidy that would result in the tail wagging the dog.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#132

Post by lambdadmitry »

cseleborg wrote: post #101
dr_dshiv wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But surely there is some point to it all. They point of the plastic is not for the consumer but the grocer and transporter. There should be some cost-benefit analysis — not just “all plastic must be avoided.” That’s a bit much.

Is it a bit much, though? Unlike me, my children will never experience their home planet without microplastics everywhere, from the highest peak down to the deepest trench in the ocean. They will have to pay a hefty price for what we and those before us have done to the environment. I think that's a bit much. Where's the cost-benefit for them of wrapped cucumbers? Like I said, there are applications where plastic is…

If you live in a developed country, your contribution to the microplastic problem is minuscule regardless of the amount of plastic packaging you use. Landfilled, or better yet burned in industrial setting plastics don't get into the oceans, they are either fixed there for millennia, or don't exist anymore. Plastics are a non-issue for countries with functioning waste management, which is coincidentally the countries that can afford caring about it the most, so in a sense there is a self-contradiction in this debate.

International treaties forcing developing countries to get their waste management together combined with targeted investment there would help way more.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#133

Post by lazide »

ArnoVW wrote: post #128
lazide wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all of them switched to the current state of affairs the moment they could. Their parents too. Weird huh?

Correction: the moment they thought they could

Pretty sure they could and did and have been for quite awhile.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#134

Post by f1refly »

rwmj wrote: post #112
cseleborg wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was news to me, although I guess I'm not surprised. It's frustratingly difficult to buy groceries at the supermarket without plastic.

We compost many things at home, but cardboard boxes around food are a minefield. Most look like cardboard, but after you compost them you'll be picking out the plastic sheet that was bonded into them. One that particularly annoys me are cat food boxes. The cat food is separately wrapped (in unrecyclable foil-bonded-plastic, of course), and then the cardboard box containing those packets has a hidden plastic layer - f…

I've been packaging cat food when I was in high school and they do that because, when a single of those cat food packets rips open for whatever reason, the smell is pervasive and intensive. It spreads through the whole warehouse, from a single open bag, getting ever worse as it spoils. The plastic lining in the displays is to protect the shipment - think of an the oilsump the cellar which contains a houses oil tank is lined with. It's a way to contain the spread of a hazardous substance in case the probably containment unit fails.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#135

Post by cseleborg »

lambdadmitry wrote: post #132
cseleborg wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a bit much, though? Unlike me, my children will never experience their home planet without microplastics everywhere, from the highest peak down to the deepest trench in the ocean. They will have to pay a hefty price for what we and those before us have done to the environment. I think that's a bit much. Where's the cost-benefit for them of wrapped cucumbers? Like I said, there are applications where plastic is…

If you live in a developed country, your contribution to the microplastic problem is minuscule regardless of the amount of plastic packaging you use. Landfilled, or better yet burned in industrial setting plastics don't get into the oceans, they are either fixed there for millennia, or don't exist anymore. Plastics are a non-issue for countries with functioning waste management, which is coincidentally the countries…

Germany exports most of its plastic waste. China stopped importing it a few years ago, so now it gets bought up by African countries. I think your assumptions about a functioning waste system do not apply to most developed countries I know, unfortunately.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#136

Post by cseleborg »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #111
cseleborg wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a bit much, though? Unlike me, my children will never experience their home planet without microplastics everywhere, from the highest peak down to the deepest trench in the ocean. They will have to pay a hefty price for what we and those before us have done to the environment. I think that's a bit much. Where's the cost-benefit for them of wrapped cucumbers? Like I said, there are applications where plastic is…

Here is a rundown of the cost-benefit. I think it helps explain why plastic is used! https://www.forkranger.com/plastic-wrapping-of-cucumbers-cle...

Thanks for posting this. The issue I have here is that I would need to spend hours researching whether wrapping a single kind of produce is OK or not. It's a science!

Another example: is it better to buy the non-organic, locally produced apple or the organic apple that comes from Argentina? (I'm in Europe).

In the store, I need simple heuristics to make my decisions. My heuristics:

- Is there plastic? -> Pass

- Is it produce from far away? -> Pass, mostly

- Is it non-organic? -> Pass, if there's an organic alternative.

And yeah, sometimes it's a decision between the produce that's organic but wrapped in plastic and that which is conventional but without wrapping and grown locally. That's a head-scratcher every time.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#137

Post by lambdadmitry »

cseleborg wrote: post #135
lambdadmitry wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in a developed country, your contribution to the microplastic problem is minuscule regardless of the amount of plastic packaging you use. Landfilled, or better yet burned in industrial setting plastics don't get into the oceans, they are either fixed there for millennia, or don't exist anymore. Plastics are a non-issue for countries with functioning waste management, which is coincidentally the countries…

Germany exports most of its plastic waste. China stopped importing it a few years ago, so now it gets bought up by African countries. I think your assumptions about a functioning waste system do not apply to most developed countries I know, unfortunately.

According to [1] and [2], most German plastic waste goes to Netherlands. Moreover, apparently a third of it gets incinerated or recycled domestically. So yes, officials turning a blind eye to developing countries pseudo-recycling plastic waste is a problem, but 1) it's not as clear cut as you present it 2) surely building a few incinerators is easier than reinventing all logistical chains to not use plastics?

[1]: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/06/PE22_N035_51.html

[2]: https://waste-management-world.com/artikel/germany-s-problem...

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#138

Post by numpad0 »

ArnoVW wrote: post #100
lazide wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a container for your wrapped product? That gets full of random lint and dust? Meh.

This is how your parents and grandparents lived. Stuff got dirty, and instead of tossing it after having used it once, they.. washed it! When I go shopping, I: * bring my own bag * buy oat, rice, sugar, pasta, chocolate etc in bulk (w/ textile bags I bring) * refill detergent containers in-shop * buy fruit & veg without packaging .. and I have no meaningful reduction of my living standard. I know it's difficult to ma…

I've heard that there is a powder processing device called entoleter that are typically NOT used in Europe for grain and powdered food products, as ambient temperature is low enough for bugs to hatch and grow on such food in considerable likelihood.

What I'm saying is, the chance of that happening IS considerably high elsewhere, and in such elsewhere it is imperative that oat, rice, not sugar but pasta, and chocolate, must be denied of life under sterile light of an ultra processing foodstuff factory and somewhat hermetically sealed. Otherwise you wouldn't know what you'll be getting later.

Just something which reason isn't immediately obvious sometimes.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#139

Post by colordrops »

magicalhippo wrote: post #120
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea. My elevator pitch for this is “shipping containers for everyday items”. If we standardize on reusable container sizes then they can be returned, washed, and reprocessed back into the supply chain.

Here in Norway, soda bottles were returned, washed and used again. They moved to single-use bottles some years ago, using recycled plastic[1], citing that the energy required for the transportation, washing etc of the reused bottles was higher than that of making new from recycled plastic. A big issue is that a bottle going back to be washed is mostly air, so you get relatively few in a single truck. The new ones get…

Perhaps this will change when the bulk of energy used is renewable, so that the tradeoff of using more energy isn't as much of a problem.

Re: Could Dissolvable Cranberry Film Replace Plastic Packaging Someday?

#140

Post by labster »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #113
labster wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If oil demand decreases enough, it should get more expensive. It seems counterintuitive, but so much of the supply chain depends on moving large amounts of oil, refineries selling different grades of molecules to different customers, and oil companies not having to pay to shut down old wells. Heh, just kidding on the last one, oil firms never pay to shut down wells, they just sell to small firms which can go bankrupt…

None of this applies to KSA's oil - which is more than enough oil to meet plastic consumption for 100 years. At $20 per barrel - the economics alone will be tough to beat with some other material.

Wow, I didn’t know that refining, shipping, and access to global capital didn’t apply to KSA. Such a magical country.

They’re going to need that magic when the primary export collapses — or if it doesn’t, wet bulb temperatures in the Gulf make it literally unlivable. The $20 a barrel will be even harder to sustain in a protracted civil war, which is where they are headed if they don’t diversify enough.

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