>Our 500k developers would not pay to use it.
You need to have 500 users to understand that, not 500K. A well-written postmortem otherwise.
Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
131–140 of 547 posts
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#132"Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools. Their manager might, but engineering managers only want to pay for discrete new capabilities, i.e. making their developers 18% faster when writing code did not resonate strongly enough." I never used Kite, but I've tried Github Copilot twice, and found it marginal at best (and distracting at worst - which is why I turned it off both times). If Kite wa…
Paying for copilot :) at least in go it’s great to write tests and sometimes some smaller functions :) totally worth paying for it, even from your own pocket if the company wouldn’t allow expensing it
If the company wouldn't pay for it then better think twice because you could get in hot water with legal. That's not a tool one's job or even company's business is worth risking over.
Copilot has a ton of still unresolved legal and compliance issues (copyright violation problems, sending proprietary code to Microsoft as you are writing it, etc.) and most larger businesses won't touch it with a 10 foot pole for that reason. There is even a class action lawsuit against Microsoft over Copilot already.
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Until Microsoft grants Copilot users blanket protection over copyright claims from Copilot generated code, I wouldn't even think of touching it.
We may well find out the answer to that when this lawsuit[0] concludes. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23446821/microsoft-openai...
If Copilot generates the exact same code as the source, I don't see how that process could be exempt, it's like using the clipboard on your PC with extra steps.
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#134“Our 500k developers would not pay to use it. Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools.”
I don’t like depending on something I could lose in a month or tethers me to the internet. I consider that more a service than a tool. I’d prefer to just buy something once that just works, but that business model might be dead too since people will pirate things that aren't tethered to some serverside component.
I guess what I’m saying is that I want to buy tools, but people are only renting. Personally I’m largely holding out hope this becomes someone’s open source passion project and I can truly own my tools.
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Buying something and then changing it is not "hijacking" that thing.
If you have a nuanced understanding of the language, yes, it is. The common definitions have to do with stealing, but an equally valid definition of the word hijack is to: > take over (something) and use it for a different purpose. Taking over a project so you can have it to advertise your service is exactly that.
Hey if we're going to talk language, maybe you should just use 'Kife', it looks like Kite and means to steal. (Allegedly derived from Old English word 'kip', net says it's British slang, but I've heard it a few times in northeast US.
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, this was precisely what I was referring to. In small-enough programs (e.g. one file) Copilot has all the context. The other extreme would be something like the Chromium codebase. Because of this, Copilot looks better in quick demos than real-world use. (Though of course it is very impressive and this tech will get there, hopefully very soon!)
But what I'm saying is that it does use imports, at least in Rust. I'm assuming that somehow behind the scenes they're concatenating the contents of the imports into the prompt. I can imagine this is easier in a language like Rust that has a really strict module system, and to be fair the project that I've been using it on is a side project that isn't over 10,000 lines of code yet. If I were up to 30 imports per file…
Does it seem to only understand imports of public libraries? If so, it's likely that, rather than understanding the contents of those libraries, it's learning from others' use of those library APIs. If not, it is likely just understanding the words in the API at a shallow depth.
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#137I'm confused. "we were 10+ years too early to market, i.e. the tech is not ready yet." "Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools." "We built the most-advanced AI for helping developers, but it fell short of the 10× improvement required to break through because today’s state of the art for ML on code is not good enough." Sounds like you know why people didn't pay for it. If it truly did make pe…
[deleted]
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
My experience with copilot has been very different. It easily pays for itself, and getting my employer (seed stage startup) to spring for it for the entire team was an easy sell. Yeah it's pretty dumb most of the time. But I know that, and I don't use code from it without carefully checking it out and modifying it. But it's still a huge help. Just the time saved writing tests alone pays for it. And I've had a few spo…
Out of interest, how are you using it to write tests? Do you just write "make a test for functionX" or something? (Don't have much experience with it)
[deleted]
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some ml/dl tools (think gpt3) seem to be able to answer questions that we previously thought you needed gintelligence for. I think the line between "pure statistics" and "intelligence" are much more blurry than they used to be, and might go away entirely.
Actually, I think the industry is finally realizing that there is no intelligence there, especially with gpt3 which can figure out with great precision what statistically comes next, but there is zero understanding of the space-time conceptual meaning for gpt3 in that answer - its not designed to do anything but figure out statistically what is most likely to come next. Gary Marcus has been doing a good job of exposi…
> Another key piece of evidence, the failure of all FSD attempts trying to use ml/dl thinking its more than just statistics.
I would almost put FSD as a good example here. Yes, some attempts here are very naive and try to use ML as a magic black box tries to covers a long stretch of the system from vision to turning the steering wheel. However the best performers just utilize ML for small well-defined parts of the system and in a "statistics on steroids" way with most of the other parts utilizing much more traditional methods.
Re: Kite is saying farewell and open-sourcing its code
#140"Our diagnosis is that individual developers do not pay for tools. Their manager might, but engineering managers only want to pay for discrete new capabilities, i.e. making their developers 18% faster when writing code did not resonate strongly enough." I never used Kite, but I've tried Github Copilot twice, and found it marginal at best (and distracting at worst - which is why I turned it off both times). If Kite wa…
When I tried kite over a year ago I was relatively unimpressed with it. Even though it ran as a plug-in to jet brains IDE it required a windows installed service and two separate executables running in the background (kite.exe, kited.exe), and that stuff continue to run after exiting my IDE which was unacceptable for me.
Kite may have been the first to market but copilot blew them out of the water in terms of overall functionality.