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Is 40 hours a week too much?

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Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#131

Yes, why is this still a question? Look at how productivity relates to wages after inflation adjustment. We have all been robbed for decades.

Relative wages have not risen, but standard of life really has. For a week of work at minimum wage, I can buy a lot more cool stuff than anyone from 100 years ago. Things have gotten so good, that almost everyone has riches beyond the wildest dreams of someone from 1850, it's just that we all have it, so it doesn't feel like we've gotten much more from our productivity.

Well, for the most part you can't compare the minimum wage of 100 years ago since it didn't exist, and subsequently excluded most workers until much later.

In 1966 the federal minimum wage was amended to include most workers, so a comparison at that point can be made.

In 1967 the minimum wage was $1.40, or $10.92 adjusted for inflation. The current minimum wage is $7.25, so in dollar terms the cost of goods, especially housing, really is much higher in minimum wage terms.

Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#133

If you want to find the optimal number look at how many hours startup founders put in. Incentives are 100% aligned in how they benefit from their work. They have no incentive to work less or more than the optimal number of hours.

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Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#134

Employee? Sure, aim to get your workweek as close to 0 hours as possible unless you genuinely love what you are doing, then clamp it at 40. Startup/founder/significant equity holder? Sorry, no -- at least in the first year or three. Working 50 hours a week vs. 40 can be the difference between success and failure in the first few years of a company. I work anywhere between 40 and 60 hours depending on how critical a l…

Always need to keep in mind value of work. Working at Joe Widget Co. and get a tight deadline for a new feature? Value of the work was already low, value of your extra effort is pretty much unknowable, why would anyone work overtime? Early stage startup its much easier to draw a line straight from work -> value.

Yep, I think this point gets lost in most of these articles.

If someone is used to already working five hours a day and surfing Reddit for another three hours as a "break", then this less than 40 crap sounds like an obvious no-brainer - I can already hear the "but I get my work done in 25 hours for the week!" tripe.

For the rest of us who can work without any distractions for as many hours as necessary, it's silly.

Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#135
post #99
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard Elon does 120 hours a week. /s I haven't seen anyone doing 40 hours a week. At least not more than a week.

Lawyers and bankers regularly do 4000 hour years. Doctors often average 60 hour weeks for extended periods of time. What are you talking about?

Yeah, and the survival rate from cardiac arrest increases when cardiologists are away at a conference, too.

Wonder if the two things could be related.

Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#136
Reasoned from an employer, the economic optimum consist of two parts:

1) The time you work is spent doing meaningful things.

2) The amount of hours equals the point where if you'd add hours, the negatives outweigh the positives.

In that sense it's bizarre how both parameters don't seem much of a priority. Entire armies of office workers are stuck in zoom meetings and email, seeing most of their day cut up into tiny slices where you can't do focused work. It's quite common to hear that people do about 2 hours of actual work per day.

Rather than obsessing over some ancient number of hours "present", shouldn't effectiveness be an absolute top priority? Not only do managers not seem to care that their employees do little real work, they actually believe that those small blanks in your calendar means you're not busy enough. Have some more meetings. Let's collaborate more!

Here's my "CEO for a day" solution:

A system will for each meeting calculate its cost, which would be the amount of participants multiplied by their hourly rate. Since a 1 hour meeting really costs about 2 hours of productivity (just before and after meetings, nobody does work), the sum would be multiplied by 2, or 1.5 at least.

Once per month or so, you check the aggregates, starting with the worst offenders. It looks like Tom organized about 30K worth of meetings last month. Now Tom is going to tell the company what tangible value he produced in these meetings to offset this.

You'll soon find that it's all power laws. A small group of people responsible for flooding people with meetings.

And you can do the same with email. Efficient workers sent perhaps a handful of emails per day, yet Tom seems to be sending 50-100, all day and night.

Perhaps Tom should shut the fuck up and not mistake his joy in communicating with people for work.

Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#137
Quantization of work is so weird to me in the context of software engineering.

Most of the work I do happens passively as I think about some problem. Much of this thinking occurs outside of the traditional 9-5 window.

"Amount of time spent presiding over a work PC" doesn't count as a useful metric in my book. I prefer to measure the quality of work via outcomes and customer feedback. Meetings are an unhappy exception to all of this, but they are a necessary evil. Eliminate unnecessary meetings with prejudice - They will come back like zombies if they were really that important to the business.

Contributions still need to be mapped to outcomes, but that has nothing inherently to do with a time dimension. Non-contributors and relative performance should still be quite obvious to management, even if you can't say exactly how much time was spent by each participant.

Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#138
Figure Little's law may be a bit applicable to the discussion :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little%27s_law

You never really want "100% utilization" (something I feel a lot of managers don't quite understand).

The answers here are very interesting. I work more than 40 hrs (my own business stuff) and I always wish there was more time in the day, lol. Never worked at a big company but I do imagine if people are only "working" 20 hrs that's a sign that they could "work-less." IMO as long as stuff gets done (in a timely manner) that's all that should matter.

Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#139
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the "I'm sitting down and writing things that are going to be productive" is likely in the 10-20h/week range, there is still a lot of * Meetings * Mentoring * Answering random questions * Continuing education (Hey, Spring 6.0 was just released, what's in that?) * Support (and being available for support) Those can easily fill in a lot of the 'void'. I can point to 5h/week that are standing 'meetings' where it i…

Most of these conversations seem to come down to weird definitions of "productive time". Most of us managers would consider meetings, mentoring, work-related Slack conversations to be productive time. Yet I read a lot of the comments here where people don't consider anything to be productive time unless they're actively writing code, which ignores the realities of working in a team environment. A better metric might…

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Re: Is 40 hours a week too much?

#140
post #65

8-to-5 is 45 hours a week. I'm still in the office, even for lunch. Considering travel, it bumps up to 50 hrs/week. I hate how this 10-hour "work tax" is always dismissed as part of 40 hour work week.

Do you go to the office because you need to or want to? Seems there is some difference there.

Why does that even matter? Or do you just assume everyone is a Javascript programmer?

If I say "need" people will tell me it's my fault and to change jobs.

If I say "want" people will tell me it's my fault and to change jobs.

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