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The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

newyorker.com

131–140 of 747 posts

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a statement about each party's (dis)satisfaction with the current success of their party. This requires clarification. If our government was elected based on a "one person one vote" principle, Republicans would be nearly guaranteed to lose the presidency and Congress. Since 1992 there have been 8 presidential elections. Republicans only won the popular vote once (2004) but also won the presidency in 2000 and 2…

Senators were meant to represent each state's government not the people directly. The Senate, by being once removed from the people, was supposed to take a longer more measured view on issues. The 17th Amendment[1] broke that and made senators elected by the people. The people have the House. The House has also been broken over time. In 1929 the House was capped at 435 members. Since then the number of people that a…

The Articles of Confederation were 1-state-1-vote, and we've seen how that ended. The Founders explicitly rejected that approach when drafting the Constitution, and documented their reasons:

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed22.asp

"The right of equal suffrage among the States is another exceptionable part of the Confederation. Every idea of proportion and every rule of fair representation conspire to condemn a principle, which gives to Rhode Island an equal weight in the scale of power with Massachusetts, or Connecticut, or New York; and to Deleware an equal voice in the national deliberations with Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or North Carolina. Its operation contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. Sophistry may reply, that sovereigns are equal, and that a majority of the votes of the States will be a majority of confederated America. But this kind of logical legerdemain will never counteract the plain suggestions of justice and common-sense. It may happen that this majority of States is a small minority of the people of America; and two thirds of the people of America could not long be persuaded, upon the credit of artificial distinctions and syllogistic subtleties, to submit their interests to the management and disposal of one third. The larger States would after a while revolt from the idea of receiving the law from the smaller. To acquiesce in such a privation of their due importance in the political scale, would be not merely to be insensible to the love of power, but even to sacrifice the desire of equality. It is neither rational to expect the first, nor just to require the last. The smaller States, considering how peculiarly their safety and welfare depend on union, ought readily to renounce a pretension which, if not relinquished, would prove fatal to its duration."

"... To give a minority a negative upon the majority (which is always the case where more than a majority is requisite to a decision), is, in its tendency, to subject the sense of the greater number to that of the lesser. Congress, from the nonattendance of a few States, have been frequently in the situation of a Polish diet, where a single VOTE has been sufficient to put a stop to all their movements. A sixtieth part of the Union, which is about the proportion of Delaware and Rhode Island, has several times been able to oppose an entire bar to its operations. This is one of those refinements which, in practice, has an effect the reverse of what is expected from it in theory. The necessity of unanimity in public bodies, or of something approaching towards it, has been founded upon a supposition that it would contribute to security. But its real operation is to embarrass the administration, to destroy the energy of the government, and to substitute the pleasure, caprice, or artifices of an insignificant, turbulent, or corrupt junto, to the regular deliberations and decisions of a respectable majority. In those emergencies of a nation, in which the goodness or badness, the weakness or strength of its government, is of the greatest importance, there is commonly a necessity for action. The public business must, in some way or other, go forward. If a pertinacious minority can control the opinion of a majority, respecting the best mode of conducting it, the majority, in order that something may be done, must conform to the views of the minority; and thus the sense of the smaller number will overrule that of the greater, and give a tone to the national proceedings. Hence, tedious delays; continual negotiation and intrigue; contemptible compromises of the public good. And yet, in such a system, it is even happy when such compromises can take place: for upon some occasions things will not admit of accommodation; and then the measures of government must be injuriously suspended, or fatally defeated. It is often, by the impracticability of obtaining the concurrence of the necessary number of votes, kept in a state of inaction. Its situation must always savor of weakness, sometimes border upon anarchy."

Note that the highlighted bit is exactly the state of affairs that we have today. Which is to say, EC/Senate today is basically as bad as AoC 1-state-1-vote was back then.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#132

Russia and China recently amended their constitution to ensure their respective leaders can stay in power permanently. Having some unchangeable bedrock in a country seems very valuable as we are all vulnerable to tyrants at some point in history.

Many non-authoritarian countries don’t have term limits for their head of state.

US only got Presidential term limits several decades ago. Simply codifying a tradition after it was challenged. The term limits haven’t always been a net positive.

Something more modern to prevent tyrants could be helpful.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#133
post #62

I like the idea of the Constitution as a living document, updated over time, but I'm also really glad it's so hard to amend. It's not perfect, but there are usually extremely good reasons for pretty much everything in there, and so if we're going to change something, it seems like a prerequisite should be a deep understanding of why something was put in there in the first place. Take the Electoral College. It's en vo…

See also: Chesterton's Fence. https://www.chesterton.org/taking-a-fence-down/ There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see…

The Chesterton quote I was thinking of while reading this article was:

> The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

literally no one is suggesting a direct democracy. The question is whether the constituents of this country are people or states, and I suppose the answer probably depends on whether you live in a populated or unpopulated state.

The Constitution is an agreement between the states, not individuals. When ratifying the Constitution the people of a state voted to join the union as the unit of a state not as individuals. That makes the states the constituents not the people.

If that was all there is to it, there would have been no House of Representatives. But people who authored the Constitution knew full well that it was not just about the states:

"... if, in a word, the Union be essential to the happiness of the people of America, is it not preposterous, to urge as an objection to a government, without which the objects of the Union cannot be attained, that such a government may derogate from the importance of the governments of the individual States? Was, then, the American Revolution effected, was the American Confederacy formed, was the precious blood of thousands spilt, and the hard-earned substance of millions lavished, not that the people of America should enjoy peace, liberty, and safety, but that the government of the individual States, that particular municipal establishments, might enjoy a certain extent of power, and be arrayed with certain dignities and attributes of sovereignty? We have heard of the impious doctrine in the Old World, that the people were made for kings, not kings for the people. Is the same doctrine to be revived in the New, in another shape that the solid happiness of the people is to be sacrificed to the views of political institutions of a different form?"

It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object. Were the plan of the convention adverse to the public happiness, my voice would be, Reject the plan. Were the Union itself inconsistent with the public happiness, it would be, Abolish the Union. In like manner, as far as the sovereignty of the States cannot be reconciled to the happiness of the people, the voice of every good citizen must be, Let the former be sacrificed to the latter."

(https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed45.asp)

And here's a bit more specifically on the nature of the government that they were trying to establish:

"The proposed Constitution, therefore, is, in strictness, neither a national nor a federal Constitution, but a composition of both. In its foundation it is federal, not national; in the sources from which the ordinary powers of the government are drawn, it is partly federal and partly national; in the operation of these powers, it is national, not federal; in the extent of them, again, it is federal, not national; and, finally, in the authoritative mode of introducing amendments, it is neither wholly federal nor wholly national."

(https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed39.asp)

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#135
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a statement about each party's (dis)satisfaction with the current success of their party. This requires clarification. If our government was elected based on a "one person one vote" principle, Republicans would be nearly guaranteed to lose the presidency and Congress. Since 1992 there have been 8 presidential elections. Republicans only won the popular vote once (2004) but also won the presidency in 2000 and 2…

The cap on the size of the House should be lifted, so that an approximately equal number of people are represented by each representative, no matter what state you live in. I don't see the problem in both California and Wyoming getting two senators, since that's (as you mention) precisely the point of the Senate. It's very deliberately built in to the American political system that the will of the half-plus-one major…

> It's very deliberately built in to the American political system that the will of the half-plus-one majority does not dictate the direction of the whole country.

The problem that we have is the reverse - a half-minus-one minority can (and occasionally does) dictate the direction of the whole country. Tyranny of the majority is bad, but tyranny of the minority is even worse.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#137

Russia and China recently amended their constitution to ensure their respective leaders can stay in power permanently. Having some unchangeable bedrock in a country seems very valuable as we are all vulnerable to tyrants at some point in history.

In Russia and China, the constitutional amendment process isn't really democratic, so it's not a fair comparison. In particular, all the various Russian referenda on constitutional amendments since 2000 are about as meaningful as the recent referendums in occupied Ukrainian territories. So it wouldn't matter even if it were as hard or harder to amend as the US constitution - not when the parliament and the regions consistently vote unanimously for anything that Putin puts in front of them.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No intelligent person thinks that we got 250 years of relative peace and prosperity by randon luck Yes, to the extent that the US had more peace and prosperity than, say, European states, most intelligent people with even modest knowledge attribute that not to random chance but to three major factors: (1) The Pacific Ocean, (2) The Atlantic Ocean, (3) The extremely small number of remotely near-peer powers that hav…

The point was governmental stability, not protection against invasion. If you look at, say, France, in the same time they've had their revolution, then Napoleon, then back to monarchy, then back and forth with republics and emperors and such. They're now on the fifth version of their republic. In the same time, the US has had the Civil War, and January 6. That's "relative peace and prosperity".

> The point was governmental stability, not protection against invasion.

The two are related.

> If you look at, say, France, in the same time they've had their revolution

A major factor in which was allegations of the King conspiring with the governments of peer rivals against the interests of his subjects.

> then Napoleon

Who rose to power through (and as the Directory was bankrupted by) the Coalition Wars.

> then back to monarchy,

Imposed by the victors after Napoleon’s Empire was defeated in interstate war.

External security and domestic stability are not unrelated.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#139
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't reject it based on age. I reject it based on the fact that the people in question were largely slaveowners who led a revolution because the government of Britain was trying to muscle in on their tea smuggling operations, who thought that phlogiston existed, who were deists, who have nothing to teach us today.

In the same vein as GP, the validity of an idea is independent of whether the people who held them owned slaves. If you don't own slaves but think the sun rises from the west, you're still wrong. Besides, if the only things to be learned from history are those from whom you deem morally clean, I'd wager there's precious little left at all.

The GP wasn’t advocating for their ideals, they were just wondering aloud what their opinions might be, and that’s the thing nobody should care about.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#140

I consider myself a patriotic American, but I don't know that the government even follows the Constitution in the first place. NSA has been hoovering up data of innocent Americans, and the IC in general, works with foreign ICs, to target Americans without reasonable cause, just blanket vacuuming. Much of the govt, including federal, state, and local, has been purchasing private data without a warrant signed by a judg…

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it."

-- Lysander Spooner (I think)

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