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Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

economist.com

131–140 of 734 posts

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#131
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way for the EU to 'fight' russia would be to not be dependent on it for energy. Russia can also do what it likes because of the constant nuclear threat. Russia has nukes that work, whereas the likes of the UK has a single nuclear sub that occasionally gets stuck on a sand banks. The Russians probably know where it is at all times.

> Russia has nukes that work Does it? Nominally, Russia has roughly the same number of nukes as the US. The US military budget is 700bn/yr and it spends 60bn/yr in maintaining its nuclear weapons. So 60bn/yr is a good estimate for what it costs to maintain a US/Russia-sized nuclear weapons arsenal. Russia spends 60bn/yr on its military in _total_. However much of that goes into maintaining its nuclear arsenal is clea…

It doesn't take very many to ruin a nation, and no one will be comforted by the fact that you were wrong when the plumes comes down from the sky.

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#132
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is fighting its own fight but it's far from alone.

Voters in a democracy tend to react better to dollars-spent than bodybags-returned. So support via the former will always be the more tenable position for a democracy.

Voters in democracy tend to react better when debt or "others" are seen to be paying for things and not them...

I can assure you that if the everyday American saw in line item on their paycheck called "Ukraine War Tax" the public would be much less supportive, but since all the money is either printed, to debt then there is a disconnect between government spending, and the hidden tax of inflation everyone is paying but pretending to just be "greedy companies" and not government spending that is the cause

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#133
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need certain machines for EUV. There's only one manufacturer (ASML) for those, and they're at capacity. And even if they wanted to scale up, there's only one manufacturer (Zeiss) for the EUV mirrors required for those machines, and all their capacity for the next years is already bought as well.

DUV seems to be economical down to about 7nm though.

From what Intel put out in marketing materials, even at 14nm they had a very unreliable process with DUV. So, it might not be economical for the type of IC produced in these factories.

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#134
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many thought it was not only possible but inevitable: The Schlieffen plan, French revanchism, general military buildup across Europe, and of course Biskmark's 1888 comment: "One day the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans."

You're both wrong. Many people subscribed to each belief. The economists, globalists and industry people believed that it could never happen. The military, nationalist and political folks figured it would be inevitable, or at very least if it happened they had to win. Many people subscribed to the argument of the economists and globalists in more democratic countries because it was a comforting illusion the people in…

Or, like the UK, the days of Russian empire are over and the new bi-polar world will be the NATO/India/AUNZ/Asia vs China/Africa.

So another Cold War for the 21st Century if we continue to rely on a mercantilist attitude in a world where networking is more important than some trade links.

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treating political and military leaders as rational entities is dangerous.

Xi is one of the most rational actors on the world stage. Machiavellian rational, but rational. I recommend the Economist's podcast series on him.

I would mostly agree, but is "saving face"[0] considered rational behavior? How big a factor is that in this thread's context?

Honest questions here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)#Ch...

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#136
post #22

China already declared that it will use force in Taiwan if "possibilities for a peaceful reunification should be completely exhausted". From Chinese Anti-Secession Law: Article 8: In the event that the "Taiwan independence" secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China, or that major incidents entailing Taiwan's secession from China should occur, or t…

Chinese law should almost never be considered something that constrains the government, and especially not in grandiose cases like this. The government will do as it pleases, regardless of the law. That is more of a strong press release than a binding proposition.

However, I am not arguing that China is not serious about retaking Taiwan. They are deathly serious.

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#137
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a more simple explanation - if China wants a boat to travel from anywhere to Guangzhou, Tianjin or Shanghai then at the moment the boat has to pass close by an island that is a US ally. If China controlled Taiwan, that would no longer be true and they'd have easy access to the Pacific. For the last 300? 400? years the dominant global superpower has been a naval power. You don't need to be a Leninist or a "tr…

> There is a more simple explanation - if China wants a boat to travel from anywhere to Guangzhou, Tianjin or Shanghai then at the moment the boat has to pass close by an island that is a US ally. If China controlled Taiwan, that would no longer be true and they'd have easy access to the Pacific. No, it would still be true. Just beyond Taiwan on the north side are the furthest islands in the Japanese island chain, an…

Singapore is aligned with the West, trains with/by Australia who are aligned with the US and NZ.

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the foundry business is now a two-horse race between Samsung and TSMC. Intel, many believe won't make it. The US gov't knows it too -- that's why Trump arm-twisted TSMC to open new plants in Arizona. Samsung was making Apple's A's in Austin, Texas some time ago, but Apple ditched Samsung's US manufacturing in favor of their China/Taiwan-first offshore outsourcing strategy.

> Samsung was making Apple's A's in Austin, Texas some time ago, but Apple ditched Samsung's US manufacturing in favor of their China/Taiwan-first offshore outsourcing strategy. Apple runs an Asia-first strategy these days, they are divesting from China at top speed (whether that's due to sanction threats, the risk of operating in dictatorships, raising wages in China or a combination of that is up for debate). It do…

Apple should be investing in a North America first strategy and getting manufacturer for everything spun up here

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#139
post #22

China already declared that it will use force in Taiwan if "possibilities for a peaceful reunification should be completely exhausted". From Chinese Anti-Secession Law: Article 8: In the event that the "Taiwan independence" secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China, or that major incidents entailing Taiwan's secession from China should occur, or t…

> can't be caught off guard by China as EU was caught off guard by Russia. There's always a bigger fish. The last time nations were obsessed with autarky, we got WW1, and soon after, WW2. Most countries (i.e. every country not suffering from a drastic case of the resource curse) have the nature that if they trade a lot with another country, either country would lose economic value if they invade the other, _even if_…

"That last one is the economic argument: Russia had to do something or their economy would fall apart if europe delivers on their plans to rapidly reduce their dependence on (russian-supplied) gas."

Putin didn't have to invade! If he was truly worried about Russia's economy he could have (and should have) gone about instituting reforms/policies to encourage economic diversification and growth. I fail to see how even a successful invasion of Ukraine results in economic upside for Russia. They were doomed to fight an insurgency for years which costs money, or they're going to spend resources rebuilding a country they just fought a war in.

Re: Intel and the $1.5T chip industry meltdown

#140
post #32

Everything can be predicted if you understand energy. Companies can't survive in a peak world without manufacturing crap. Sell more because your tools break. So now they are looking at how to do that under the premise of eternal growth: They will try to lock us down in the hardware = deprecate older hardware and force you to move to never software with TLS 1.3. That has never succeded because you can always hack ever…

> Everything can be predicted if you understand energy

Energy, while vital, is not the only component in any part of an economy.

> Companies can't survive in a peak world without manufacturing crap. Sell more because your tools break.

This cuts both ways. If tools break too often or too easily, someone else will manufacture a tool that lasts. That tool will then sell millions or even billions of units. This can sustain a company for quite a long time.

> So now they are looking at how to do that under the premise of eternal growth

No one believes in or expects "eternal" growth. It is well known that any bubble fueled by cheap money, government bailouts, corporate welfare, or any other intervention will eventually burst. This is planned for by the very largest companies. Companies without the resources to plan for these market crashes simply do the best that they can.

> They will try to lock us down in the hardware = deprecate older hardware and force you to move to never software with TLS 1.3

I feel your pain here as an enthusiast for older hardware, but this is simply untrue. No one ever forced me to give up my ZX81, my XT, or my PPC lampshade iMac. I have them, I've kept them running, and they're fine. The XT and PPC can get online just fine either with a TLS bridge or with sites like 68k.news and frogfind.com. The constant upgrade cycle is optional. People are keep phones longer than ever. The cool-down in the PC market indicates that those enthusiasts who wanted to upgrade have done so. The heat up now is likely to be datacenters where the next wave of AMD Epyc offers a very massive energy to performance trade-off against Skylake SP. All of that said, eWaste is an issue and companies who make hardware that cannot be serviced and/or upgraded easily should probably pay a tax on it.

> Since processors now have peaked

There's plenty of room at the bottom. Seriously. I do not normally make appeals to authority because doing so is stupid, but we are talking about the most complicated machines humans have ever created. In this case, I would urge you to listen to the guy who has made these machines with extreme success: Jim Keller. He thinks we still have a long roadway of improvements before we are forced to change the industry in major ways (Gallium Arsenide or quantum or something).

> Anything manufactured today will probably have hardware kill-switches or programmed obsolescence

Already kind of illegal in some jurisdictions, and already a thing in others. Mixed bag there. However, also completely untrue as you used "anything". For example, in the automobile space you can sill get a Jeep with solid axels, a simple naturally aspirated V6, body on frame, and able to be serviced in pretty much any garage anywhere. The will to deal with tradeoffs of such a vehicle is the largest obstacle. Likewise, with computing, the willingness to deal with the tradeoffs is the problem. Do you want the best performance with most convenience? Then you likely want an M1/M2 MBP, and there you are not very serviceable. You could always get a Framework or build yourself a desktop. You can even run Linux, BSD, or Haiku if you want to make sure that your software will be serviceable by you.

In any case, the limit is on you. You can choose the locked-down products, or you can choose open platforms. Most people choose a mixture based upon their needs and preferences. The preponderance of that selfsame majority then determines the overall direction of global markets. This isn't some shadowy cabal purposefully making a system that is unsustainable, this is the consequence of an aggregate of choices that put momentum behind certain things.

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