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I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

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Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#131

Post by Karrot_Kream »

gorkish wrote: post #105

Siemens has a new product that basically bypasses this entire problem by installing as a mezzanine connector into the power meter. Called the ConnectDER https://connectder.com/ Regardless of what people will continue to claim, a 110V 15A outlet is really not enough. It's possible if you live your life on a strict schedule, drive very little, are very diligent about keeping your car plugged in, and don't mind having t…

Now obviously driving mileage is normally distributed. But that said, the average American drives ~ 12,785 mi / year [1]. This means, on average, 35.03 mi / day. If a 110V/15A outlet can offer 1.65 kW, and we assume a conservative 3 mi / kW, then you only need to charge for 7.08 hrs to offset your daily driving. Assuming 8 hours a day for charging, as long as you drive less than 40 mi / day you should charge your whole day of driving up, and even if you can't you're only going to use a bit more of the battery.

This doesn't seem to be particularly strict or diligent and it's based around average driving mileage. Our house came with an L2 charger box, but we drive much less than average in the US and it feels wasted on us. I run the charger once every 2-3 weeks or so and I'm fine.

[1]: https://smartfinancial.com/average-miles-driven-per-year

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#132

Post by willcipriano »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #130
aynyc wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To bring something up to code, it takes weeks if not months. Getting permit, construction and inspection. You can't tie up a sale until that's done. Where do you get the money to pay for that? Buyer isn't gonna wait for X months, especially if buyers want to do their own renovations. You know what people will do? Pass the buck to the buyer (Sold As Is). The cycle repeats again and again.

You require something akin to an FHA 203k loan, where the improvements can be financed with bank oversight. You make these specific improvements a requirement where, if not performed using the funds provided, the loan is in default. Cash transaction can still require the work be done; have the county recorder notify the permit office of the AHJ. Lots of paths to success here.

Some codes would require you do things like tear down a addition that was perfectly legal and safe last year or moving a house back further from a road that the government expanded. Not everything in local building codes is for safety, there is a lot of aesthetic stuff in there. Imagine being forced to rip out a 100 year old oak tree because it isn't legal to have a tree in your front yard anymore. Pools are no longer allowed, fill it in. No thanks. I'd never buy in a locality like that, might as well live in a HOA.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#133

Post by chiph »

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That would be much cheaper.

I plan to add a charger to my rental property, either when my current tenant buys an EV or when they move out (to avoid disrupting them). The home is fairly new and was built with 200 amp service so I don't anticipate any permit problems. The idea is to differentiate my property in the marketplace and justify a higher rent.

What I don't want is a tenant running a homemade 240v cable to the outlet for the electric clothes dryer and manually plugging/unplugging back & forth. That's unsafe.

[1] The fire department will pull the meter when they arrive and start fighting a fire, so they aren't spraying water on live circuits.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#134

Post by natch »

seattle_spring wrote: post #84
natch wrote: post #34

You do not need an EV charger to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet. It was fine. With this arrangement, yes, on days where you do big tri…

Spending 30+ minutes not including added drive time to go to a supercharger everytime I want to go to the city or on a hike is not even close to a "very, very minor inconvenience." Speak for yourself, as I would bet money that the majority of EV owners find significant value and benefit from at-home L2 charging.

It’s hardly like that at all though.

300+ miles of range is plenty to get to a nearby city and back for most people, with or without supercharging.

The “very, very minor inconvenience” I referred to is the non-issue of having to find something to coil the cord onto when not in use, solved by most installed chargers which give you an hanging hook. BFD.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#135

Post by natch »

seattle_spring wrote: post #84
natch wrote: post #34

You do not need an EV charger to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet. It was fine. With this arrangement, yes, on days where you do big tri…

Spending 30+ minutes not including added drive time to go to a supercharger everytime I want to go to the city or on a hike is not even close to a "very, very minor inconvenience." Speak for yourself, as I would bet money that the majority of EV owners find significant value and benefit from at-home L2 charging.

More like 10 minutes with a 250kw charger if it’s on your way. Big if, of course. But again you can always charge at home instead if it’s just a nearby city.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#136

Post by acuozzo »

foogazi wrote: post #108

> As EVs become more common, more landlords will be driven to invest in vehicle charging. Can EVs become more common without tenants being able to charge them ?

Yes, if EVs are produced with standardized modular battery arrays.

Stop by the "gas" station, open up the hood, grab your drained battery cell cards, bring them in, and pay for fully-charged cell cards to swap in.

The "gas" station can then charge the cards you brought and give them to another customer.

It's worth noting that, under this scheme, battery life can be monitored and manufacturers can recycle/replace EOL cards when the "gas" station sends them in.

No more waiting for the car to be charged. No more changes to homes. Just use the existing infrastructure! It's a win-win.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#137

Post by yellowapple »

aynyc wrote: post #123
yellowapple wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.

To bring something up to code, it takes weeks if not months. Getting permit, construction and inspection. You can't tie up a sale until that's done. Where do you get the money to pay for that? Buyer isn't gonna wait for X months, especially if buyers want to do their own renovations. You know what people will do? Pass the buck to the buyer (Sold As Is). The cycle repeats again and again.

> You can't tie up a sale until that's done.

Sure you can - and you damn well should, especially for outright safety issues. What's the point of a building code if it ain't gonna be enforced?

> You know what people will do? Pass the buck to the buyer (Sold As Is).

Then give the buyer a grace period to bring the building up to code.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#138

Post by Karrot_Kream »

xsmasher wrote: post #115
bhhaskin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not practical out side of large urban areas in the US. Not only is distance a factor but also weather. No one is going to be riding an Ebike in 10° winter weather, and a lot of people commute 60+ miles a day. Not to mention that public transportation in a lot of areas can be... Let's just say perceived as unsafe. Hydrogen (by itself) is as clean as it can be. The byproduct is water.

Public transit practical in small towns in Europe. How do we fix it in the US?

It's cultural. Americans perceive anything but a private automobile to be inconvenient and unsafe, even though stats show that private automobile use is actually fairly dangerous. Changing the culture will take a while.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#139

Post by mindslight »

chiph wrote: post #133

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That woul…

From the article:

> We recently decided to update our duplex’s electric system.

I'm left wondering what exactly they meant by "update our duplex's electric system" if they did not mean put in a new service, new main panel, and bring the branch circuits up to current code? Like what were they actually envisioning doing, that did not include redoing the branch circuits?

If this story were written with the electric vehicle precipitating the chain of events, I can see how that would be frustrating. But it seems they set out to do the updates, and are now complaining about doing the updates?

The utility's position seems wholly unreasonable though. If this weren't a rental property, the right answer would be to DIY the install and make the utility deal with the additional load on the distribution infrastructure.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#140

Post by quickthrowman »

chiph wrote: post #133

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That woul…

> I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That would be much cheaper.

You’re correct, you don’t need to move the panels, but you do need to provide a emergency service disconnect on the exterior of the house. You could leave all the existing branch wiring in place, assuming it is up to code, and refeed the existing panels from the new service entrance location. The relevant code section in the NEC is 230.85, added in 2020.

A large portion of the cost is new panels with AFCI and GFCI breakers, they’re $50-100 each for a 15A 1p breaker, probably $1500-2500 for each panel.

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