Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues • Hacker News Board

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#131

Post by kube-system » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 2:10 AM UTC

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #122

kube-system wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thieves don't usually say "you caught me!" when confronted by police. They frequently claim they own the stolen items.

So what? If the person is non violent and cooperative why use cuffs?

Cops generally determine the risk of a suspect by the severity of a crime. A felony crime is considered a significant crime.

But regardless, cops put cuffs on everyone they arrest. The point being that they don’t know who is going to fight you to get away. People will fight to escape over the dumbest things.

It’s not really a huge injustice to sit in cuffs for a couple minutes while cops verify wtf is going on. I’m the first to criticize the cops but this isn’t really that kind of situation.

If I reported my car stolen, I would expect the cops to have a reasonable assumption that the person they find it with could be the thief.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#132

Post by eyelidlessness » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 3:32 AM UTC

lazide wrote: post #130

eyelidlessness wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop and ask yourself if you’re engaging in a harmful way, or if you could be more considerate about how other people experience police confrontations. My anxiety is through the roof from this interaction. I’m reliving physical and psychological trauma I don’t often revisit, including being bludgeoned while trying to get people to safety away from police and having guns drawn on me for asking about the safety…

Why is their experience of less trauma less valid than your experience of more trauma? Both seem valid to me. The world doesn’t owe you foam padding at every turn.

Their less traumatic experience is valid. I never said it wasn’t. I self edited and rewrote before commenting so many times trying not to misstep here that my more emphatic direct validation apparently didn’t make it in but I’m emphatically glad they haven’t been so traumatized.

That it’s equally valid doesn’t necessarily mean it’s equally important. My experience is less important speaking to how traumatic police encounters are, than experiences of people who’ve experienced worse trauma. It’s just as valid that I don’t share their trauma too.

The world doesn’t owe me anything. It’s a rock hurtling through space that has an unusual concentration of life on it. No one here owes me any consideration at all, “foam padding” or otherwise. But I don’t owe anyone a failure to advocate for myself, either. And I don’t owe anyone a failure to articulate when I think an attitude or argument is harmful or selfish, nor a failure to try to appeal to their better intentions.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#133

Post by StopHammoTime » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:02 AM UTC

The thing that boggles my mind in regard to this is that they don’t take them to an impound lot. In Australia, if your car is towed someone then has custody of it. I guess initially the “courtesy” part is that it’s meant to be easily findable. But it sounds like having a centralised place where you can get your car and you won’t get fined sounds like less effort the the “helpful” solution.

If the local government can’t afford to tow cars to an impound lot and pay those fees, then they can’t afford to have local events. This is simply a case of having your cake and eating it too. Local government wants all the benefits of having events with none of the negatives (like actually planning and being responsible).

I actually don’t understand why there is no system where a note is issued by the tower that informs whoever that this car was moved as part of a courtesy tow and it is not subject to fines. I don’t mean a centralised system, I mean a sticker you can just bang on there. There should also be an option where you could call the DMV and they can “page” the owner to advise them were their car is located if someone is being inconvenienced by an unwanted car that has been towed.

There are so many simple options that won’t fix the issue but at least prevent it from being hellish. The fact that nothing has been done makes me feel like this is actually quite intentional on part of the parking authority for revenue reasons.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#134

Post by Phillytbag » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 4:32 AM UTC

gshulegaard wrote: post #58

lolinder wrote: post #30

> That’s the Philly euphemism for what is formally known as “relocation towing” — when the police department, Philadelphia Parking Authority, or a private towing company moves vehicles from legal parking spots for special events, construction or emergencies. I can see needing to move a vehicle in an emergency, but for special events and construction this shouldn't be needed in most cases. The city knows months in adv…

As someone relatively new to Philly, I am not at all surprised by the need for relocation towing. In the immediate Philadelphia metro area, but outside center city parking is extremely sparse. It's not uncommon for me to help squeeze neighbors into barely large enough parallel parking spots (by waving them in) at midnight. Some of these folks live more than 6 blocks away and purportedly were looking for parking after…

My car got towed while I was on a trip during that race a few years ago when I lived off of South Broad Street (:

I was parked in the middle of Broad and Snyder (in this section of South Philly it’s acceptable to park illegally in the middle of the street) because I couldn’t find another spot and had a flight to catch.

Came back a week later, car gone. Walked around for a couple hours then approached a cop parked nearby. After quite a bit of back and forth on the radio he told me my car was parked over 20 blocks away, curtesy tow.

Another time I parked on a Thursday, slept through a hangover on Saturday and missed the police posting for a street festival. That was some ordeal getting it back on Sunday. Took a couple hours and I think $250 or so.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#135

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 8:02 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #72

sokoloff wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a reported stolen car/felony stop, it seems pretty reasonable that they'd handcuff the driver before checking the driver's license and discovering it matches the registration.

After reading the article but before reading the comments, I thought to myself, people will defend all manner of awful things, even when they’re this clear cut . Sure wish I’d been wrong. Being forcibly detained is traumatic. Especially when you know you’re being detained wrongly. I’m speaking from experience here, and as someone who has received a settlement in a wrongful arrest suit. There’s nothing reasonable abou…

The state's monopoly, qua Max Weber, is on the legitimate use of violence. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state.

Absent this, one of three conditions exist;

1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state.

2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. This is your condition of tyranny (unaccountable power).

3. Some non-state power or agent assumes the monopoly on legitimate violence. In which case it becomes, by definition the State.

The state's claim is to legitimacy. A capricious exercise would be an abrogation of legitimacy

Weber, Max (1978). Roth, Guenther; Wittich, Claus (eds.). Economy and Society. Berkeley: U. California P. p. 54.

https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mod...>

There's an excellent explanation of the common misunderstanding in this episode of the Talking Politics podcast: https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership>

The misleading and abbreviated form that's frequently found online seems to have originated with Rothbard in the 1960s, and was further popularised by Nozick in the 1970s. It's now falsely accepted as a truth when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation and obscures the core principles Weber advanced.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#136

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 10:44 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #132

lazide wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is their experience of less trauma less valid than your experience of more trauma? Both seem valid to me. The world doesn’t owe you foam padding at every turn.

Their less traumatic experience is valid . I never said it wasn’t. I self edited and rewrote before commenting so many times trying not to misstep here that my more emphatic direct validation apparently didn’t make it in but I’m emphatically glad they haven’t been so traumatized. That it’s equally valid doesn’t necessarily mean it’s equally important. My experience is less important speaking to how traumatic police e…

I shared my less intense experience because it better matched the experience of the subject of the article. They were detained, cuffed, investigated, and released. It was inconvenient.

Your much more severe interaction which included bludgeoning is totally valid but not a direct analog to her (and my) much less severe interaction.

I’m sorry if my words caused you harm. (That’s meant genuinely, as tone cannot be conveyed in text reliably.)

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#137

Post by soulofmischief » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 11:32 AM UTC

Zircom wrote: post #125

soulofmischief wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened to me last year on my own property in my own parking space, and my landlord refused to tell me for weeks and weeks who towed my car, and then refused to pay the fee. I want to sue (towing fees became larger than what I put into the car) but I have no idea how to proceed? I don't have a family to depend on for this kind of advice. The market has been so insane since that I still haven't purchased a new c…

Call your state bar association and get a referral for a local attorney, a lot of state bar associations offer 30 minute consultations for >$50, and at the very least give you advise on how to proceed. A lot of times a demand letter sent from a lawyer is enough to get them to release the car and waive whatever bogus fees they're charging, and if not off to small claims court, where again they can advise you how to pr…

Thank you! I wish I'd received this advice when it happened. In general the state bar association is a good first-stop if I'm not sure what to do next in situations like this?

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#138

Post by mindslight » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

calvinmorrison wrote: post #129

mindslight wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why my comment would make you angry. I'm not saying "everything is fine", rather pointing out how it works in other cities, as an example of some sanity to push for. The comment I was responding to was full of handwavey reasons why any sort of change would be too complicated, essentially justifying the status quo. I would think that if you wanted reform, that is the type of thing what would make you angr…

It makes me angry in the same way a kid from Kentucky may say "why don't the Palestinians and Jews just get along ". There's a whole history with parking here. Yes, if our city was even one iota of a normal place we would expect these things. Instead we drop our pants and bend over because, well actually I don't know why we do, Stockholm syndrome?

I mean sure, but we're talking about a government agency that should theoretically answer to the people, whether through the democratic process, or (as in the article) eventually through the courts. Also as bad as they apparently are, I wouldn't think the parking deputies are holding a grudge against residents for filling the streets or something. Rather they're just motivated by money/expedience, and constrained by what they can get away with.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#139

Post by paleotrope » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 7:48 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #96

tylermenezes wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should plaster the neighborhood in warning notices a month before the event I grew up in Seattle but lived in Philly for 2 years and this was one of the strangest things to me. In many cases they don't post _any notices at all._ I knew enough people who got "courtesy" towed with no records that I added a GPS tracker to our car to make sure I could find it. See also: https://www.inquirer.com/news/courtesy-towin…

Seattle, for anyone who hasn't lived there, has a set of folding barricades marked 'No Parking' with a blank space to put dates and times. I believe you can even go to the city and borrow a set yourself for things like sidewalk repairs, taking down a tree, moving vans, or having a forklift show up to move something into your yard, though these seem to go out pretty close to the event whereas I saw city ones show up t…

It's a pretty normal thing here in Massachusetts that you can get some placards to post on the street for when people are bringing in moving vans and whatnot. I believe you get these from the town you live in.

Re: Philly pays $30K to two 'courtesy' tow victims, but class-action suit continues

#140

Post by paleotrope » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

ryukafalz wrote: post #59

Spooky23 wrote: post #10

I feel this validates my “no Philly” policy. I grew up in NYC, and have a certain immunity to deal with aloof, hostile or otherwise obnoxious city officials. I’ve been to Philly on business and pleasure a few times and… forget it, it’s a whole other level. One wedding, literally 30% of the guest had a ticket, tow or other drama. Life is too short. Philly makes Jersey look good.

PPA is somehow simultaneously notorious for overzealously ticketing and for completely ignoring cars parked in crosswalks, bike lanes, sidewalks, etc. It’s the most bizarrely inconsistent government agency.

You are overlooking the possibility that the illegally parked cars are owned by the connected, like police and city officials.

This is all normal, every day, corruption.