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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#131
post #88
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This issue of speculation on empty properties would be, if not solved, then at least immensely alleviated with a Georgist LVT (Land Value Tax), a tax on properties equal to the rent for the undeveloped piece of land. It's easy to implement, the market exists to price that amount, and provides a direct incentive to either put the property to productive use or get rid of it. Building physical houses to sit empty as a f…

> Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity. I quite agree, and I am therefore very suspicious that this is actually happening in significant volume! I have never seen convincing evidence that this happens, and it, at least superficially, makes no sense as a money-making scheme (Worried about degradation? That just means you should get insurance.…

Indeed. I'm most familiar with the US market so can't speak for European countries which may be different, but here's a graph of estimated vacant units held off-market against total housing units in the US:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=TiNw

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#132
post #73

Its a global problem that interest rates have been too low for too long. Most Americans dont realize that in most countries, house prices continued to go up through the 08-10 recession, so haven't gone down since the early 90s. Property needs a big global crash.

Thank you for mentioning interest rates. Any time housing comes up on HN, the main factors people bring up are short-term rentals, NIMBYism, and lack of new development. However, if these explanations had any merit, why have home values in Flint, MI increased by 67% since March of 2020? Flint's population has rapidly declined over the past 40 years and continues to decline (its population is less than half of what it…

And the biggest reason people buy housing is that its been the best investment. The wealthiest people I know are the people that bought houses a long time back and kept leveraging up into buying more.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#133

One of my students got a job offer in Portugal before the pandemic. He personally came to thank me for being his teacher; he is a good, dedicated student. Pandemic came, he stayed in Brazil doing remote work. Found him a few days ago. He told me he gave up going to Portugal and decided to stay in Brazil for now mostly because cost of living there. His initial salary would be 1.6K euros.

1.6k euros per... month?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#134
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

Portugal should just do what the U.S. and Canada should also do: built more housing: https://slate.com/business/2013/05/exporting-housing-service... . It's not hard! We knew how to build a lot of housing on a particular parcel a hundred years ago.

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#135
post #102
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Portuguese case is quite different, I think. Canada has a well-developed and diversified economy. Portugal needs to import a lot from the world, but has very little to offer in exchange. They found something: their real estate and city center spaces. The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's not a self-sustainable economy and the world won't work for them for free. If the Portuguese want to solve this issue, on…

> The country NEEDS this foreign income. It's just parking money. It's the last thing a socialist country like Portugal needs, because it screws up the real estate market making housing unafordable to the general population, who lives, works there, pays taxes and maybe has kids. What they can do is tax all property as if one is renting it, like Switzerland does and use the 6 month median rent as the tax base.

If parking money is the problem, I guess an indirect solution would be to give people other places to park their money.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#136
post #45
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is pretty bad from this point of view from what I recall, compared to other places where it's generally legal to build a broader variety of housing in cities. But perhaps it just got bad here early compared to other places. Portugal's demographics, like much of western Europe, didn't look like they were going to change dramatically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Portugal - so getting set up to…

The US is pretty bad if you force yourself to remain in the same area (which, to be fair, most people do). But the US is large and there are places where housing really isn't the issue (but there can be other issues, too).

That's kinda what I was saying

The US has places that you can live cheaply if you're able to arbitrage a remote job. It doesn't look as good if you're not able to work remote.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#137

Related article in the WSJ today about Americans buying European homes due to the favorable exchange rate: https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-the-u-s-dollar-surges-americ... I wonder how this will impact "golden visas." Personally, if moving to Europe, I would be a little concerned about short-term energy insecurity pretty much anywhere except perhaps the Iberian peninsula. I think they'll find a solution, but it'd be h…

The Iberian peninsula imports gas from Algeria. The instant they accept Moroccan control over Western Sahara is the instant the gas stops flowing from Algeria to Spain and Portugal.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#138
I moved to Lisbon in 2020, and I've become increasingly aware of the impact that high-income remote-worker immigrants like me are having on the city, and other similar places. I've been thinking of building something to try and help:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PortugalExpats/comments/vy0i5r/crit...

It's proved... controversial! I'd be interested to get HNs take.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#139
post #75

Inflation in Portugal is 9%, Euribor interest rate used to calculate mortgage is 1.483%. Housing is where you park money.

what a smart and filled with empathy comment for an article about people being pushed out of their hometowns.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#140
As a Portuguese living in Lisbon, I find this article to be all over the place. Sometimes it’s realistic, often it’s just sensationalist.

Yes, real estate prices are nuts right now. I have no clue how my kids are going to find places to live when they want to move out, but I can tell you that a lot of that is just plain and simple greed from builders and homeowners who often refuse to maintain (let alone re-paint or improve) existing buildings.

There are also political aspects to how zoning and development takes place, but those vary so much depending on region and party lines that I’ll just call it lack of political responsibility (also, most people outside the extreme left or right don’t want to get involved in politics, lobbying or economic discussions).

There was a very big emphasis some 40-50 years ago on building thoroughfares, regional transportation, and nationalizing what passed for core industries, but all roads led to district capitals at the expense of doing actual regional development. Efforts to foster or sustain most industries largely failed (although there are echoes of those in current startup support programs, and some regional programs of note), so young people gravitated towards the shoreline (and towns, and the services industry) and the countryside just aged away.

I have been thinking of moving out of Lisbon to a smaller town (property prices are tempting), but health, shopping, etc., are just not there, because everything of interest (brand and specialists stores, entertainment, etc.) is mostly only available in district capitals, and most large companies only have offices in Lisbon or the mongrel outskirts of it, in business centres that are only reachable by car and lack decent public transportation.

So that makes it hard to get a decent paycheck outside Lisbon and Oporto, unless you’re willing to become a chattel to some lobbies who are sponsoring local colleges hoping to get cheap tech labor out of new graduates, paying them just enough to stick around.

A good summary of all the above is what happened in a district near Lisbon —- a previous mayor (who went to jail for corruption and actually got reelected afterwards) supported the creation of malls, business centers, etc., but punted on public transportation (leaving a local university center effectively stranded) and futzed about with zoning to allow premium villas to be built.

I have been expecting the Lisbon real estate market to crash _hard_ for a while now, but people with college degrees are somehow managing to pay rent or mortgaging other family assets to buy flats in the city. The rest struggle, of course, and are pushed out to the suburbs.

I wonder for how much longer things will stay this way. Portuguese are becoming more technically literate on average, so that gives me some hope, but I just don’t see the overall economy evolving beyond the primary industry/services and tourism dichotomy, no matter how many tech unicorns spring up and bring expats here.

(On that note, Portuguese wages, even in FAANG companies, are merely a fraction of our US, UK, German and Swiss counterparts, and that can’t be explained solely through cost of living comparisons… but that’s a completely different discussion)

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