Live data from Hacker News

Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

maximumtruth.substack.com

131–140 of 151 posts

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand. The blog is talking about death tallies which is an easily observed binary outcome. They weren’t trying to measure other outcomes. Are you thinking a COVID infection might kill you two years later? That seems unlikely. Might it cause other health impacts? That’s almost certainly true, see long COVID. But it’s simply not the analysis being done here. This is about figuring out the degree to which c…

I think they're referring to the stated conclusion, that this author thinks his work supports his own view that lockdown policies were too restrictive, and we should instead have more freedom/death. Even with 20/20 hindsight, that seems like a bad take, and when the decisions were taken, we didn't have 20/20 hindsight, and we won't the next time either.

Exactly. The article said:

> Here’s a question: would you have preferred to live through a total travel ban and total lockdowns, like Australia’s, to save yourself 10-to-15 days of life?

> Is stopping that worth it to you?

> My personal answer is: No. It would not be worth it to me. I’d take that loss in expected lifespan, in order to travel and live freely for a couple years.

Virtually everyone's answer to that question is "no" because it's the wrong question. Phrasing this as THE question seems intellectually dishonest. There are a few better questions one might ask:

- If new diseases sweep through every so often, and each of them has a 20% chance of leading to long-term disability affecting a significant portion of the population, should we have a lock-down?

- If new diseases sweep through every so often, and a real world-wide lock-down means they don't become endemic for your children's children, is that worth it to you?

- If a disease sweeps through, and reduces the IQ of the general population by 5 points, is getting that under control worth it to you?

... and so on. I was never worried about COVID killing me. However, I was 100% in support of tight lockdowns, of the type which would have prevented COVID from becoming endemic, for reasons unrelated to my own risk of death.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#132
Our country (Czechia) count covid deaths as "those who has positive PCR test after death". Which means that covid was not always cause of death. Uncle of my friend had Alzheimer's in late stadium and died last year. She was counted as covid dead. Insurance companies payed more to hospitals for covid patients, so it was profitable to make up some cases.

Our neighbors (Slovakia) count covid deaths after autopsy where covid was main reason of death.

So... Data was collected differently. Conclusions based on those data are relative.

I ask many people about how many people dead because of covid they personally know. For today, I know only one. That lead me for conclusion that I cannot trust my gonverment any more.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#133
I find the ‘10-15 week expected life’ extension per person quite a useless and callous statistic. You’re talking about individual lives, peoples grandparents and friends. Their death doesn’t get averaged out among the population. It’s a person. If your dad died of Covid you wouldn’t just write ‘it’s ok, the expected lifespan is only dropping by a couple of seconds’, right?

I live in Australia and I absolutely hated our policy of mandatory vaccination, but I’m glad our lockdowns saved lives. Don’t reply telling me they weren’t mandatory either. For most people quitting work or study is not an option, so bugger off.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#134
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if we fail to be able to cope, what then? As https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... and many other sources will attest, COVID and COVID lockdowns was TERRIBLE for mental health among teenagers. And yes, poor mental health is a communicable disease within a family. This is personal. 3/4 of my teenage children are receiving psychiatric care. Including a daughter who was temporarily institut…

> I've spent a lot of hours of my daughter explaining very calmly why we should stop caring about her so she can die in peace. Surely this is worded very poorly, and is not intended to say that you have been telling your daughter that you don’t care if she suicides. Because that would be monstrously cruel and quite possibly warrants prosecution per the Michelle Carter/Conrad Roy III case.

It is indeed worded poorly.

She was the one explaining to me why she wished that the people she loved could let go of their desire to hold on her. That way she could die as she wished, guilt-free. But instead she was stuck with a life of misery which she had a variety of reasons to believe would never improve.

It would be easy to dismiss were it but a childish tantrum. But it was not. She was very intelligent, mature and persuasive. And spent months improving her talking points into the best arguments that she could manage.

You find it easy to condemn someone who was in this position and was persuaded by despair. I can no more condemn them than I would a torture victim who broke. But I hope that you never are unfortunate enough to have an experience that shakes the arrogant naiveté that maintains your ignorance.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#135
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if we fail to be able to cope, what then? As https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... and many other sources will attest, COVID and COVID lockdowns was TERRIBLE for mental health among teenagers. And yes, poor mental health is a communicable disease within a family. This is personal. 3/4 of my teenage children are receiving psychiatric care. Including a daughter who was temporarily institut…

This though is another example of "people/society should do X because it has a potential negative impact on other people". Which I generally agree with. And it appears the person you replied to thinks like that as well. The article on the other hand is arguing that we shouldn't do things differently to avoid impacts on people, because that reduces 'freedom', and he'd rather be free to go out during a pandemic than pr…

You misrepresent his argument.

Just as we have to consider the price of people dying across the whole population, we also have to consider the price of lost liberty across the same population. If the average person in the population shares his preferences, that they would prefer liberty even at the risk of death, then the sum across that population of those values results in the same conclusion. The population as a whole will suffer more from loss of liberty than from excess deaths. And therefore the greatest good would follow from doing as they prefer rather than as you think that they should.

But that isn't what it actually looks like. What we actually have is about half the country who prefers liberty, and half who prefers life to be as long as possible. And this division corresponds fairly well to the existing political divide between Republicans and Democrats. Who are really good at not hearing each other already and so misrepresent each other's points. As you just did.

Now of course his argument is missing other harms that people have suffered. Such as the impact of long COVID. There are plenty volunteering to make that argument. I'm pointing out that the reverse is true as well. The cost of lockdowns includes widespread mental health problems, lost education, weight gain, increased alcohol consumption and so on. See https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2021/03/one-year-pan... for an idea of how common and how extreme these impacts are.

When you add up everything on both sides, it isn't obvious which side is better. I know my preference. Which is, of course, biased by my extreme experience. But in 20 years we will still be suffering from long COVID. We will also suffer from poor mental health, alcoholism, excess diabetes, and so on. It isn't clear which set of harms will be worse. But if you refuse to look at the harms that don't support your chosen position, then you literally are unable to even think about this.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#136
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China’s policy never worked well and the various levels of mimicry of that policy across the world was responsible for the vast majority of the avoidable pandemic damage. Their lying about the obvious human to human transmission and repression of doctors speaking out is what prevented early containment, and their draconian lockdowns were both horribly repressive and ineffective. They made a big show to compensate for…

> The continued credulity of the west despite all of the lying China has done is astoundingly stupid. Anyone with an ounce of understanding of the culture and the government, particularly Xi’s government, was laughing at the Chinese figures and demanding on the ground access early on to determine what was actually happening. How did China hide what was actually happening from foreigners at the 172 embassies in Beijin…

They locked everyone down. After trying to hide the pandemic and failing (see https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-02-06/corona...). If everyone's locked down and the CCP is doing all the counting, how are you going to know anything other than what you're told? Undercounting is a lot easier than trying to hide it, which again, they did until they couldn't. The presence of foreign ambassadors and business people means nothing. They weren't involved in auditing data collection.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#137

Sweden Age Adjusted Mortality 3rd January 2020 through 18th June 2021: -2.3% Source: ONS Not only did lockdowns fail, they were unnecessary and cruel and tyrannical. I sincerely hope that the responsible people will face justice that is just as harsh as the lockdown enforcement was.

A respiratory disease requires collocation of people. How do people get infected in a lockdown? Over the internet?

In the stores they go to in order to feed themselves and run errands, or by people that drop off food.

It only takes one person in an apartment building to infect the whole building if the ventilation is poor.

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#138
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've spent a lot of hours of my daughter explaining very calmly why we should stop caring about her so she can die in peace. Surely this is worded very poorly, and is not intended to say that you have been telling your daughter that you don’t care if she suicides. Because that would be monstrously cruel and quite possibly warrants prosecution per the Michelle Carter/Conrad Roy III case.

It is indeed worded poorly. She was the one explaining to me why she wished that the people she loved could let go of their desire to hold on her. That way she could die as she wished, guilt-free. But instead she was stuck with a life of misery which she had a variety of reasons to believe would never improve. It would be easy to dismiss were it but a childish tantrum. But it was not. She was very intelligent, mature…

> You find it easy to condemn someone who was in this position and was persuaded by despair

I do? That’s news to me. Pray tell, where did I state this condemnation?

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but a vaccinated population in which a vaccine is driving up adverse events would likewise contribute to All Cause Mortality would fall into this trap. Likewise, extreme draconian governmental responses that destroyed economies, hurt supply chains, and drove many to suicide and substance abuse would increase all cause mortality. All Cause Mortality is best when comparing outcomes between different groups A/B, but not…

Which is why comparing countries which had strict lockdowns with countries which did not have strict lockdowns is helpful in showing that stricter lockdowns resulted in lower comparative excess deaths. Instead of hypothetical scenarios in which suicide spikes and all-cause mortality rises, we have realities in which the opposite happened[0]. There is no collection of facts from the real world in which the vaccines ar…

> There is no collection of facts from the real world in which the vaccines are causing more harm than they prevent, and no collection of facts from the real world in which lockdowns didn't save lives where implemented. But nothing is likely to convince the true believers, so carry on.

Actually there is.

It is called VAERS, and the statistics on Absolute Risk Reduction.

> "The concept of risk, and our ability to assess risk, has also made the headlines in the context of the COVID-19 vaccine trials. Using data from a Nov 26 opinion piece in the British Medical Journal (BMJ), we can see that vaccine efficacy in terms of the relative reduction of the risk of getting ill is around 95%. For example, in the Pfizer trial, assuming an equal split of the 44,000 participants into the vaccine and placebo groups, 0.74% of the placebo group fell ill but only 0.04% of the vaccinated participants did. The relative risk reduction is calculated as the difference between these two incidences (0.7%) divided by the placebo value (0.74%), arriving at the conclusion that 95% of COVID-19 could be avoided if people got immunized. However, there is another way of looking that the same data: The risk reduction in absolute terms is only 0.7%, from an already very low risk of 0.74% to a minimal risk of 0.04%. Thus, risk reduction is 95%, but it also is just 0.7%." [1]

> "A critical appraisal of phase III clinical trial data for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine BNT162b2 and Moderna vaccine mRNA-1273 shows that absolute risk reduction measures are very much lower than the reported relative risk reduction measures. Yet, the manufacturers failed to report absolute risk reduction measures in publicly released documents. As well, the U.S FDA Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) did not follow FDA published guidelines for communicating risks and benefits to the public, and the committee failed to report absolute risk reduction measures in authorizing the BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines for emergency use. Such examples of outcome reporting bias mislead and distort the public’s interpretation of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine efficacy and violate the ethical and legal obligations of informed consent."

Now, you may want to argue this for higher risk groups with comorbidities. What about Absolute Risk for teenage males where the risk of covid 19 is a fatality of 1 in hundreds of thousands to millions, but an MRNA vaccine carries a significantly higher chance of pericarditis/myocarditis, not to mention other AEs? What about athletes where the risk of a vaccine increases the chance the injection will not be intramusculuar, but instead, intravenous?

Some of the of the MRNA vaccines effect on the heart was not known at launch [2]

Anecdotally, I know two people that had severe adverse events to the vaccine, one almost died. The chances of that happening with a safe vaccine are miniscule. One of the aforementioned was likewise a healthy athlete with no comorbidities, in excellent health, of young age.

[1] https://www.oyetimes.com/views/op-eds/341030-covid-19-vaccin...

[2] https://drjessesantiano.com/study-shows-spike-proteins-affec...

Re: Covid “Fudge Factor” – A map of Covid data corruption and approach that worked

#140
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is indeed worded poorly. She was the one explaining to me why she wished that the people she loved could let go of their desire to hold on her. That way she could die as she wished, guilt-free. But instead she was stuck with a life of misery which she had a variety of reasons to believe would never improve. It would be easy to dismiss were it but a childish tantrum. But it was not. She was very intelligent, mature…

> You find it easy to condemn someone who was in this position and was persuaded by despair I do? That’s news to me. Pray tell, where did I state this condemnation?

Look above to where you say, "Because that would be monstrously cruel..." If that is not condemnation, then what is it?

It sure doesn't sound like any kind of empathy.

Post reply on HN