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Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

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Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#131
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if "the vast majority of citizens thinks something is a good thing", shouldn't it be legal in the first place? Because democracy.

That’s the argument advocates of direct democracy generally support, but no actual democratic systems fully implement direct democracy. In practice what we generally have is representative democracy, where we delegate the power to make laws, and make and implement policy to representatives. Those representatives have personal moral responsibility for the laws and decisions they make and are sovereign individuals in t…

> That’s the argument advocates of direct democracy generally support, but no actual democratic systems fully implement direct democracy.

To be fair, Switzerland comes very close. The public can pass initiatives or constitutional amendments without government intervention through public votes, and the few Swiss people I know consider this to be the primary political system in Switzerland (not the representative electoral system they have, though they also have a very interesting mechanism for their President which requires cross-party agreement for any government decision).

Saying "no system fully implements direct democracy" feels like a no-true-scotsman stance, since by the same token no system fully implements representative democracy either (AFAIK no country guarantees that there is a precise percentage match of party representation to the popular vote with no lower bound on how many votes a party needs to enter, as it would be unworkable to have such a system).

> The problem is “the people” don’t have a single coherent group consciousness capable of reconciling competing priorities. That’s what leaders are for.

The flip side is that in representative democracies (especially with broken voting systems that are not even remotely representative such as in the US, UK, and most of the world) you are very limited in your choices of leader and thus sentiments which are popular with the public can be completely ignored. There is no mechanism to force a public initiative that has legal weight, so you have to hope that a major party will be in favour of your pet issue and they can convince other bureaucrats to support something that is popular.

I would not say that I'm a proponent of direct democracy but I don't think having some public initiative system would be a bad thing. But if we are going to keep representative democracies with the argument that the leaders represent the people but have some expertise (though cynical people would argue that is not the case anyway) then you cannot have broken electoral systems because their political power is no longer morally justified. But of course, no party that gets in power would likely ever change the entire electoral system since they have a strong political incentive to not do so (and with representative democracies, election promises aren't worth the paper they're written on).

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#132

Some quotations... for me, the quote from Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is important: 'The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both the law and the facts.' https://www.jurorsrule.com/quotations-and-comments-on-fully-...

The only quote from him that I know by heart: "This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice."

That is a fantastic quote. I had to read up on it.

So, from my very limited understanding, the point is kinda like you have to pass the legal steps before you have a chance at getting justice. Rules of evidence, Miranda warnings, whatever.

I think it's sorta like you have to pass the compiler before you get a chance at a working program.

Now, I'm going to strain this analogy, what do you do when there's a bug in the compiler? Me personally I patch the fucking compiler, and then submit a PR. Maybe that PR gets accepted, maybe not. But the problem I have right now is fixed.

I would probably not be a good juror.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#133
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be a better alternative?

Anonymized justice. The facts. The arguments and a decision without any of the parties knowing race or anything else.

"this anonymous person stands on trial for their role in spreading hoaxes in their show about Sandy hook shootings, they have made millions selling supplements online and host their own talk show catered to right wing conspiracies. "

I have literally no idea how you'd accomplish anonymity in many, many cases.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#134

I wonder what portion of jurors know what jury nullification is? I've always thought I could simply utter those words and get out of any jury duty. Not that I would, I would love to serve on a jury. I also wonder how many HN readers would be allowed on a jury?

Why in the world would HN readers not be eligible to serve on a jury. I was on a jury trial when a spouse of a prosecutor office employee was allowed on. People drastically overestimate what will get you moved out of the pool.

I'm a prison abolitionist who believes the police are generally too powerful and have too many incentives to lie under oath. If a lawyer asked me about these things during jury selection I strongly suspect they'd move me out.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#135
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only quote from him that I know by heart: "This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice."

Wow! I have been saying for a while now that in the US at least the judicial system had no relationship with justice or reason. The false pretense of impartiality and apolitical decision making leads most to believe otherwise.

Indeed, the Adversarial system includes some 'preconditions' that don't really hold in the real world, alas.

Of course there are lots of other systemic issues with the US 'justice' system, but I also think the foundation is fundamentally flawed.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#136
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the killing of Ken McElroy[0] >In all, there were 46 potential witnesses to the shooting, including Trena McElroy, who was in the truck with her husband when he was shot. No one called for an ambulance. Only Trena claimed to identify a gunman; every other witness either was unable to name an assailant or claimed not to have seen who fired the fatal shots. The DA declined to press charges. An extensive f…

Quoted post unavailable.

The problem is, plenty of other people agree with you, except they consider you to be in that 0.25%.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#137
post #98
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can also go the other way, with a jury convicting someone even though they don't believe the person is guilty. Some say this would not be a problem because unlike in an acquittal the judge can overturn a guilt verdict. That's not a convincing argument because much of what a jury does is decide which of believable but conflicting witness accounts to believe. The judge often has no way to distinguish between the jur…

Not really since a court can overturn a verdict without a second trial by jury. A jury nullification can't be overturned by a court. You'd have to abolish double jeopardy if you wanted equivalence.

Aside: England and Wales abolished DP in 2005 for serious crimes: (“two conditions: the retrial must be approved by the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the Court of Appeal must agree to quash the original acquittal due to "new and compelling evidence"). Prior to that, innocent verdicts could be appealed for jury / witness tampering, etc.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think of this as an utter failure of the system, but lingering on this for a while: if the vast majority of citizens (= people who can meaningfully participate in the society) thinks lynching is a good thing, the jury nullification is only a step behind making lynching OK in the books for that group. Of course there could be upper laws blocking them from making it an official stance, but it really feels lik…

I mean, if "the vast majority of citizens thinks something is a good thing", shouldn't it be legal in the first place? Because democracy.

It would depend on what happens next...do the people against lynching get their own place where they decide their own rules democratically ? Or the other way, do pro-lynching people go build a new Lynching Empire somewhere else and leave their land and resources behind ?

I'd be a supporter of freedom to decide any rule within a group if there was infinite resources and we'd just move freely to the places we want to be with the groups we want to belong to. Short of that, the majority agreeing on something is probably not enough to warrant changes, but then of course we have to deal with the imbalance...

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#140
post #104
post #99

Does the door open to the other side, which is an all-white jury finding Ruben Carter guilty?

Yes but a judge can overrule it. A judge cannot however overrule a not-guilty verdict and find the defendant guilty.

A useful asymmetry. Thanks.
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