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Post-Apocalyptic Programming

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Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#131

Post by makapuf »

speed_spread wrote: post #112
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devices running on high density flash will not be reliable long term. None of these devices have ECC to reduce the probability of catastrophic failure from accumulated bit flips.

I was thinking more about devices that can be repaired by changing a failed CPU than devices that have a lower failure rate. I believe STM (and others surely) has a line of "process critical" MCUs that may have additional reliability features but these chips are built in much lower quantity and are much pricier. It's a tradeoff that would need to be evaluated for sure. Preferring external flash to on-chip storage wou…

Problem is that stm32 parts are currently in a kind of post apocalyptic state, speaking of supply chain

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#132

Post by AstralStorm »

Banana699 wrote: post #102
Kadin wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Printing the source out on paper would probably be the most long-lasting storage method (aside from engraving it into large pieces of stone, maybe). But typing the source code back in for most non-trivial pieces of software would be really painful. "Here's the source code, go type it in" hasn't been a very popular method of distributing software, for good reason, in a long time. Maybe there's some way that you could…

Saving the source alone hardly solves anything, the comment you're replying to highlights the real problem : The Stack. Everything from the compiler\VM to the OS to the instruction set architecture and everything in between. You have to save and store all of that. You need a format other than text, text is extraordinarily inefficient and lossy at anything that is not declarative factual information. There has to be a…

What you need is a C compiler, an assembler and maybe a basic linker, then you're set. It does not need to be very good either.

In a pinch, an interpreter might do.

From there, getting an OS running is relatively quick. Remember back when PCs came with nothing but BASIC and machine code? People typed in complex machine code via that interface and ran quite complex apps.

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#133

Post by AstralStorm »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #122
ifyoubuildit wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could design a device that optimizes for longevity. Build the cheapest, simplest device that can run your piece of software, and then produce lots of them. On the simplicity side, all of the parts would be solid state, it would handle whatever power you have on hand, the inputs and outputs would allow for using whatever devices you could cobble together in a post apocalyptic world. Then on the software si…

So a 6502(C)?

Don't forget the BASIC interpreter.

The problem is that making any computer smaller than a big cabinet requires large scale integration microchips, notoriously hard to make, and potentially replace.

So it's going to be closer to PDP-7. You can do quite a lot with this sort of machine in an industrial setting.

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#134

Post by branon »

akprasad wrote: post #87
squarefoot wrote: post #81

In a post apocalyptic world, aside 1st necessity goods (food, drinkable water, medicines, knowledge on how to build/repair things), there will be a lack of energy; be prepared to keep armed watch of your roof if you have solar panels there. I wouldn't even try to keep powerful computers around if I couldn't supply them (and their peripherals) with what I have at hand, which could well be no more than a couple solar p…

> Wasn't there a old Twilight Zone episode about that eventuality? Indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_at_Last Adapted from this short story: https://gutenberg.org/files/32633/32633-h/32633-h.htm

That's not fair. That's not fair at all. There was time now. There was all the time I needed...

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#135

Post by infinite8s »

WalterBright wrote: post #85
blamestross wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I only see people. I only see atoms dancing around. That doesn't make it a useful abstraction at the scale we are discussing. Government is just an abstraction over a group of people self organizing. > People feeling they have a right to use violence to achieve their goals, not so much. Agreed, but government monopoly on violence is the only system that seems to have stuck. I would prefer a system of anarchy where…

> Libertarian presumption that people, removed from the system of control, would all act better Libertarians don't believe anything resembling that. Libertarianism requires a government empowered to use force to guarantee peoples' fundamental rights. If you have more questions about what Libertarianism actually is, feel free to ask, as I am one.

Who decides on the fundamental rights?

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#136

Post by wrycoder »

infinite8s wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libertarian presumption that people, removed from the system of control, would all act better Libertarians don't believe anything resembling that. Libertarianism requires a government empowered to use force to guarantee peoples' fundamental rights. If you have more questions about what Libertarianism actually is, feel free to ask, as I am one.

Who decides on the fundamental rights?

The people as a whole get together and decide, e.g. draw up a Constitution and then form a government to enforce those rights.

If they don't, then the strongest horse in the area will decide.

Take your pick.

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#137

Post by Aeolun »

lliamander wrote: post #97
pvg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things are in your paper encyclopedia too, they just won't ever be fixed.

Over time, the drift between the past print encyclopedias and present digital ones will itself be informative.

Reading my 100 year old encyclopedia is certainly informative from a social perspective.

Anyone not white was considered fairly subhuman at the time, and I know that, but reading how casually that all is presented as fact in an encyclopedia is mildly disturbing.

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#138

Post by sitkack »

phire wrote: post #128
sitkack wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A small device to that is designed to sideload "the most compatible" APKs that are useful would be neat. The thing it loads could be a micro VM that runs something like Lua, is able to access the camera, microphone, speaker. Should be able to get code onto via QR codes or an audio codec.

I don't think you can get much smaller than a USB C flash drive, and then might as well put the whole dataset on it. I think you want multiple APKs as part of the database (or databases, so each phone isn't required to contain the full dataset, and the total dataset can be larger than the size of a typical phone storage) The most basic APK should only consern itself with sharing the database via adhoc wifi, USB flash…

I like the way you think.

Can you put a phone into usb-flash-gadget mode? Then you could propagate the spreading of APKs via ADB from a phone-to-phone copy.

We need solar powered wifi with suites of bootstrapping APKs.

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#139

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

kosherhurricain wrote: post #58
wokwokwok wrote: post #51

> what if you are the only survivor with some programming skills sitting in front of a computer you’ve never heard of, with some hex pad to enter machine codes, with maybe some pen and paper. What will you do? Leave it on the ground and forage around until I find a computer that runs windows. It's not great, but, it'll do. Failing that, a phone and a solar charger. Charming as it is to build yourself toys 'from scrat…

Without highly automated, industrialized farming, majority of people's occupation will be food production, as it was most of human history. And post apocalypse labor shortages would mean nobody will be growing food for you, so you most likely need to do it yourself. If I survived and was industrious, I would start making tractors to sell, instead of twiddling with Forth.

But...autonomous tractors, powered by cybernetic fuzzy forth AI!1!!

edit: doubling as Guardners.

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Programming

#140

Post by WalterBright »

infinite8s wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libertarian presumption that people, removed from the system of control, would all act better Libertarians don't believe anything resembling that. Libertarianism requires a government empowered to use force to guarantee peoples' fundamental rights. If you have more questions about what Libertarianism actually is, feel free to ask, as I am one.

Who decides on the fundamental rights?

Your rights are inherent to being a human being. You are endowed by your Creator with the inalienable Rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. A libertarian government would be one that enforces those rights.

Governments do not grant rights. They either enforce or abrogate them.

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