Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#131

Post by cma » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #107

bodski wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But instead the CCP rejected that and undermined global good will Can you elaborate on this? This feels a very US centric view. The US itself has repeatedly failed to comply with its own 'rules-based order', whilst expecting other powers to comply.

The mistake that you're making is suggesting that this rules based order must mean that all countries adhere to it 100% of the time. But there are gray areas, mistakes, things that are subject to interpretation, and frankly there are areas where countries disagree. The point is that it's mostly adhered to. If you are looking for specific examples and further elaboration, frankly I can't provide that for you and you'l…

The US heavily supported Taiwan before they were a democracy (first free elections in 1995; before that they were a military dictatorship). Our support seems to be geostrategic and for capitalism (or in other cases for access to natural resources), with democracy being ancillary. Saudi Arabia is one of our biggest allies.

If Taiwan didn't have anything to offer they'd have to rely on Brad Pitt or something instead of the US military, like Tibet.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#132

Post by ericmay » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

tcmart14 wrote: post #115

ericmay wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take that point of view you deprive yourself of agency.

I wasn't included in the many and various board meetings across all companies to make the decision to move production... In fact, I wasn't in any. And to be quiet frank, I probably was born yet for many of them or still shitting myself in a diaper.

Sure, but you can today buy more expensive products that are not made in China if that's of concern to you. Of course there are some products for which there are no alternatives right now, but that doesn't stop you from making economic decisions that align with your stated values. Continuing to buy Chinese products and then saying you have no agency because some nebulous entity made a decision for you is just cognitive dissonance.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#133

Post by Aunche » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #28

przemub wrote: post #17

Trade is really a matter for the government, and the US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy. This just reflects the official policy, and having the companies pick this fight instead of the country is hypocritical.

There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. For instance, see how China manipulated the NBA and Activision Blizzard during the Hong Kong protests.

> China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that.

No we don't. China may act peeved that foreign companies are virtue signalling, but they'd secretly relish at the opportunity of finding an excuse to boycott or ban these foreign products, so that their wealth stays circulating in their domestic economy. Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. The CPC organized consumer boycotts of these companies, but happily allowed factories to continue to sell their goods to sell to them. China itself recognizes that it only makes sense to virtue signal when it is economical to do so.

The NBA and Blizzard made the correct decision to kowtow to China, economically as well as morally. Getting them kicked out of China does not help Hong Kong, but would threaten to free world as the balance of trade would make us even more beholden to China. In a complicated, globalized world, marginal thinking is the only option.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#134

Post by hunterb123 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

bell-cot wrote: post #70

Overtonwindow wrote: post #12

This is ridiculous. Taiwan is a free and independent country. Shame on Apple.

Perhaps. OTOH, my experience (modest n) is that a fairly large percentage of people are happy to say "Shame on Apple" for such things. Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there. Talk was cheap long before "Performative Activism" had its own Wikipedia page.

So OP can't shame Apple for this moral behavior because others buy Apple's product?

Would you apply that same standard and does it hold up to other scenarios?

If people were buying textile products from the slave trade, would you say "perhaps" when other (or the same) people shamed those industries for supporting slave labor?

If people were buying nuts and fruit from exploited migrant workers, would you still be able to shame the industries for better conditions or to hire minimal wage workers?

If people were buying cobalt or lithium mined from child slaves would you be able to shame those industries into sourcing minerals in a more humane way even though people buy EVs?

Or because people bought those products those companies/industries have immunity from criticism?

You cannot avoid products made in China because of the current status quo for the same reasons you couldn't avoid textiles made with slave cotton.

That doesn't mean you can't advocate change to the status quo.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#135

Post by lupire » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #104

rr888 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah makes sense. I love the politics like this where everyone is firmly in solidarity but everyone is making deals out the back door. Like Europeans at war with Russia but buying gas, Americans hating China but spending all their money on stuff made there, Communist leaders hating America but sending their kids to school there.

Cuba getting stuff from America, pro-life manifestants getting abortions, USSR smuggling US computers, KKK members surfing Ebony adult sites. That's just humanity at this point. We are full of contradictions.

No post body was provided.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#136

Post by BiteCode_dev » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #106

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and again, I'm expecting you to understand that they are making this choice because they don't want to pay the consequences of it. And that "cannot" is a short way to state that. Now, from reading your comments, I'm going to assume you are in good faith, and you simply can't see what consequences they can face. Although we can't know for sure such things without being an expert in middle-east politics, one ca…

> they are making this choice because they don't way to pay the consequences of it. And that "cannot" is a short way to state that. I don't think that's a short way of saying the same thing though, for the kind of consequences you mean at least. Imagine if I were a vegan for ethical reasons. It'd be fine for me to say "I don't eat meat", but a lie to say "I can't eat meat", since I'd be perfectly capable of doing so,…

Being neuro-atypical, I understand the desire to be "technically correct, the best kind of correct". It would be so much better if we used each word for their exact meaning.

But that's not how most human communication work. When people say "I cannot come tomorrow", they usually don't mean they can't. If you gave them one billion dollars to come, chances are they would.

This is a fairly common convention, and most people in the English language are using this approximation and assumption.

You can chose to ignore it of course.

I consider I've done my part in this conversation, and wish you a nice day.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#137

Post by f38zf5vdt » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

the_duke wrote: post #87

ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, an alternative interpretation would be that Apple (like much of the world) is in a no-win situation because an assumption that they had (like much of the world) was that investment, fair trade, and bringing China into the established international organizations would result in liberalization (within reason) of China and that they'd be a full partner in global stability. The grand bargain. But instead the CCP re…

Alternative view: Apple has spent many years happily profiting from cheap Chinese manufacturing, labor, electrial engineering expertise and supply chains to the point where they are now completely beholden to a foreign country. A country whose increasing rivalry with the US in economic power and geopolitical influence (along with increased tensions) has been clear for well over a decade. Apple is diversifying a bit i…

China's long bet is that greed will outstrip any desire for North Americans to intervene with their autocracy. So far they've been absolutely correct.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#138

Post by wongarsu » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

MichaelBurge wrote: post #102

INTPenis wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It amazes me how quickly people online are willing to start ww3. It seems like it's not the world leaders we have to worry about, it's the fucking commenters. Yes it should be picked up but the US can't just go in swinging with China. Nobody wins.

Apple's market cap is $2.7 trillion. How hard could it be for them to get a few nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and tell China, "We refuse to comply with your labeling requirements. Just try to stop us"?

Apple has about $40 billion cash on hand. A nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is about $10 billion, plus another 6 billion for the aircraft (taking a Nimitz class with 90 Super Hornets). Add in ammunition, crew, training, support craft, operational expenses. Buying more than one would seriously strain Apple's budget.

And all of that to expose it to China's anti-ship missiles and dare them to shoot. Seems like a terrible way to spend that money.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#139

Post by aidenn0 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

ElectricalUnion wrote: post #67

ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, an alternative interpretation would be that Apple (like much of the world) is in a no-win situation because an assumption that they had (like much of the world) was that investment, fair trade, and bringing China into the established international organizations would result in liberalization (within reason) of China and that they'd be a full partner in global stability. The grand bargain. But instead the CCP re…

> And basically everyone here is choosing cheaper Chinese goods so we're all complicit too. You mean big corporations and their greedy shareholders choose for us?

A smartphone is probably the quintessential "Chinese only" product.

Nevertheless, there is one smartphone made in the USA (Librem 5). None of its parts appear to be sourced by Chinese companies, but some of the parts manufacturers have factories in China (I would not be too surprised to find out that the Samsung front-camera is made in China, for example). I can't say for sure that it's lacks any china-manufactured items in it, but it's at least pretty darn close.

I don't have one because I don't want to spend $1300 on a phone. If that's not me choosing cheaper Chinese goods, then I don't know what is.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#140

Post by jjoonathan » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #94

ElectricalUnion wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And basically everyone here is choosing cheaper Chinese goods so we're all complicit too. You mean big corporations and their greedy shareholders choose for us?

If you take that point of view you deprive yourself of agency.

I sure didn't vote to permit labor and environmental arbitrage, to usher in Dutch Disease. It was painfully obvious what would happen, who would win and who would lose, but the money swooped in and demonstrated who really owns the country.

It's wild to watch the people who pushed for it slide down the Narcissist's Creed. It's fine! Oh, it's not fine? Then it isn't a problem. Oh, it is a problem? Then it isn't a big deal. Oh, it is a big deal? Then it's not my fault. Oh, it is my fault? Well, I didn't mean it. Oh, I did mean it? Well then you deserved it.