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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#131
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

Used to be an EE and couldn't afford a house in a major metropolitan area. Went into FW/SW and now I can. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but that's what worked for me.

I’m not discounting anyone’s personal experience, but that saying something when the average EE salary is about the 85th percentile of salary. Maybe it’s indicative of how broken the housing situation is in cities (and I suppose it’s very location dependent - anyone outside of SW, law, medicine, or finance may struggle to buy a home in SV or Manhattan)

https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/17-2071.00

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#133
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

I'm an engineer at heart, but I do have bills to pay and I can become interested in basically any complex system.

If EE paid better, I would be an EE. EE is interesting. Neither SWE nor my chosen career are sufficiently less interesting than EE though so it's not like I picked an uninteresting career for financial reasons.

At the end of the day it's all just problem solving. If the puzzles are all fun and don't go against my principles, I might as well go work for the highest bidder.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#134
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is a pure ideas business. You'd be surprised how many people have, sell, and get venture capital for ideas without a huge upfront spend attached just to try something out. Software is the scratch tickets of "engineering."

Nice, haven't seen "engineering" elitism since university. Software is the nervous system of a business. Everything from accounting, to payroll, to inventory tracking, to sales, to marketing, to communications, is achieved in today's world by interfacing with dozens if not hundreds of software programs and systems. Impossible to achieve with hardware alone obviously, you need operating systems, you need data centers,…

As a software engineer, software "engineering" is a joke, at least in the sense we apply that term to other disciplines of engineering. It's not like all that complexity you mentioned is understood. It's worked around, and then the workaround is taken for granted and exists in perpetuity because nobody can discern why it was done in the first place. Watching a mechanical or electrical engineer be able to predict the performance of a design in a hypothetical scenario and then have that prediction largely reflect reality in later testing is pretty enlightening. These types of things generally don't happen in non-trivial software systems largely because software "engineers" don't really care. Formal methods for verifying correctness is something we've decided isn't worth it. Formally verified operating systems like seL4, and languages that lend themselves to formal verification like Ada/SPARK, are nothing more than oddities for most software engineers; the only places that bother with this are hard engineering firms that are trying to live up to do-or-die performance guarantees.

Additionally, the minimum knowledge required to be a "good" software engineer is significantly lower than the amount required to be a "good" electrical engineer. You are not pushing any limits without an expansive understanding of mathematics, multiple opportunities to work on some very expensive shit, and an employer that's actually pushing something forward. Getting a VLSI/radio electronics/DSP/etc. engineer online is a process that takes years before that engineer doesn't need constant input to keep them from shitting the bed. Unless you're so passionate about it that you can't possibly bring yourself to do anything else, you would have to be insane to go through the amount of learning required so you can pull a salary that will only slightly top an entry-level software development job.

None of this is to say that software development isn't valuable, or that the people that are doing aren't skilled, but as an industry, we don't hold ourselves to anywhere near the standard that other disciplines do, and there's not much to gain other than saving face by not admitting it.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#135
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

I have a relative (now in his 60's) who is a globally renowned network engineer from Silicon Valley. He has many patents, worked on just about every protocol known out there, etc. Truly one of the people who made the internet what it is today. From what I can see, he was always equally interested in the money and changing the world. But now, he's in the luxurious position of being able to "work for free" if its a project that he believes will change the world for the better. Both factors have always mattered for him.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#136

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

Meanwhile, CS is reaping the benefits of a decade and a half of pushing the “Anyone can code!” narrative. CE and EE’s disdain for juniors and rampant credentialism will inevitably become a national security issue.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#137
post #122

Food for thought: At the time of this comment almost all the top comments are about pay. No doubt pay is an important consideration, but it worries me when it’s the primary consideration. The best engineers I know like engineering because they have a natural curiosity to learn how things work, not because it’s the easiest route to riches. Any engineering position can lead to a comfortable life, but when everything is…

I have a relative (now in his 60's) who is a globally renowned network engineer from Silicon Valley. He has many patents, worked on just about every protocol known out there, etc. Truly one of the people who made the internet what it is today. From what I can see, he was always equally interested in the money and changing the world. But now, he's in the luxurious position of being able to "work for free" if its a pro…

To be clear, I’m not implying they are mutually exclusive goals. But go through the comments and see how many people say “if EE had more impact or more interesting projects” vs speaking strictly about compensation to see my point

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#138
EE here and done a lot of software. The economics of software vs hardware remuneration goes something like this. Doctors and Lawyers provide skilled service to untrained individuals, and they make decent money. As a hardware engineer you provide your labour to a company that typically knows at least as much as you do about your work. And the company has usually at least handful of people on staff who can take over your work if they decide to let you go.

So, not surprisingly, it comes down to power in the value chain. Doctors and lawyers have it, hardware engineers do not. Software engineers on the other hand deal with code that few people beyond a handful would really understand your code. It's not as easy to swap you out for another guy. Then, the cost of producing a new instance of a piece of software that is already working is very low. You make one website, tomorrow 100,000 people could use it. Hardware on the other costs typically at least a few hundred dollars for each unit. Software creates much more value especially on the web with zero marginal cost ... except maybe a bit of marketing until it goes viral.

So, software engineers create much more economic value (typically) because zero marginal cost and are harder to replace because software is inscrutable. So they make more than hardware engineers that do harder stuff much less cash.

Not unlike comparing the salaries of NBA players vs underwater hockey players.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#139
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Used to be an EE and couldn't afford a house in a major metropolitan area. Went into FW/SW and now I can. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but that's what worked for me.

I’m not discounting anyone’s personal experience, but that saying something when the average EE salary is about the 85th percentile of salary. Maybe it’s indicative of how broken the housing situation is in cities (and I suppose it’s very location dependent - anyone outside of SW, law, medicine, or finance may struggle to buy a home in SV or Manhattan) https://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/17-2071.00

The housing market has a lot to do with it. In Canada, average home prices (all types) are up ~6x since 2000, and in specific cities like Vancouver and Toronto, even more so. Compensation has not kept pace. Back when I was a high school student, I didn't think pay was very important. Now I realize it's much easier to pursue one's curiosity if one can afford, say, a garage.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#140

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

Yeah, I started out as EE and ended up in CS not only because I enjoyed it more but because the courses seemed less hostile towards me.
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