The Knife Maker • Hacker News Board

Re: The Knife Maker

#131

Post by tptacek » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 11:47 PM UTC

gchpaco wrote: post #117

patio11 wrote: post #33

I'm torn between "This guy clearly enjoys his work, bully for him." and "The handmade movement is an extravagantly wasteful alternative to a factory in China to give rich white people an opportunity to demonstrate their social superiority over people who use functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion." (c.f. organic food, fair trade coffee, etc etc. This topic makes me positively Marxist. There…

I don't know chef's knives from Adam, but I'll counter that with some stuff I do know about, which is hand tool woodworking. TL;DR: I buy handmade saws because they are demonstrably superior. Time was you could not buy a quality Western saw new for love or money[1]. And by "time was" I mean "as recently as six to ten years ago". Independence Tools were the first people since the 40s, probably earlier, to make a dovet…

Actually, mass-produced chef's knives seem to be underrated; the stamped knife you can buy from Victorinox is, if you aren't way more fussy than the typical cook, likely to outperform a handcrafted aggressively-sharpened 440 high-carbon blade. Finer materials and carefully sharpened edges require a higher amount of care.

There's a legitimate joy to take in using competently hand-crafted chef's knife, particularly if you can have it made to a specification.

But a lot of the "best" knives sold really are status symbols (like the "best" of everything sold). Real pro kitchens don't always reach for the "best" stuff, since pro kitchens abuse their kit. Bourdain's sous talked about treating his Global knives as disposable.

Re: The Knife Maker

#132

Post by tptacek » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 11:55 PM UTC

spacemanaki wrote: post #49

patio11 wrote: post #33

I'm torn between "This guy clearly enjoys his work, bully for him." and "The handmade movement is an extravagantly wasteful alternative to a factory in China to give rich white people an opportunity to demonstrate their social superiority over people who use functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion." (c.f. organic food, fair trade coffee, etc etc. This topic makes me positively Marxist. There…

"functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion" I haven't actually used this guy's knives. But I've used cheap knives and I've cut myself on cheap, dull knives that don't hold their edge. And I've used moderately expensive knives. It's night and day. Cheap knives just aren't functionally equivalent. The same can be said about coffee, chocolate and other fair trade stuff. Ground Maxwell coffee that…

Most of the "best" knives are in fact mass-produced. In fact, the knives this guy is talking about, made by "a couple of robots in Germany" aren't "cheap knives"; they're the super expensive heavy full-tang forged Wusthof and Henckel's knives that are themselves kitchen status symbols.

But even allowing for that: there are extremely good mass-produced stamped "cheap" knives. Cooks Illustrated's favorite knife is a stamped Victorinox you can get for like $35.

Let's not pretend that there is really a crisis of mass-produced crappy knives that requires a hand-crafted antidote. There is real value to what this guy does --- I'm drooling over the idea of having a 10" chef's knife done to spec --- but really the western world pretty much has the problem of "how to make a good cost-effective chef's knife" licked.

Re: The Knife Maker

#133

Post by jlcx » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:15 AM UTC

noahc wrote: post #118

khafra wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all controversial--standard social signaling theory. GMU Econ professor Robin Hanson's blog, http://overcomingbias.com , has stuff about it all the time. Here's some more classic citations: http://octavia.zoology.washington.edu/handicap/honest_econom...

I've read through a lot of that it still doesn't make sense to me that someone would be uncomfortable with the unwashed masses getting access to previously unattainable goods. We both agree that certain goods produce a signaling effect. Where I am curious is do the wealthy not like it when the masses get access to good because: A) They don't deserve them. B) We have to find new signaling goods. C) They drive the pric…

I think "B" might be closest, though I don't know if I would have phrased it that way. If a certain good becomes accessible to more people, it no longer has the same signalling effect, so a replacement good must be found. I don't know if most wealthy people are terribly upset by this, though it might be upsetting to people who spent more than they could afford on a "signaling good" that subsequently became much cheaper.

Re: The Knife Maker

#134

Post by tambourine_man » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:19 AM UTC

mapleoin wrote: post #35

patio11 wrote: post #33

I'm torn between "This guy clearly enjoys his work, bully for him." and "The handmade movement is an extravagantly wasteful alternative to a factory in China to give rich white people an opportunity to demonstrate their social superiority over people who use functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion." (c.f. organic food, fair trade coffee, etc etc. This topic makes me positively Marxist. There…

So you're saying that fair trade coffee benefits "the white man" rather than the producers in the third-world country? That's exactly the opposite of what fair trade means. Also, hand-made isn't fighting against capitalism, it's fighting against mass-production, sweat-shops and machine-people jobs like the ones portrayed on Chaplin's City Lights or even Discovery Channel's How It's Made .

portrayed on Chaplin's City Lights

I think you mean "Modern Times".

Re: The Knife Maker

#135

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:30 AM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #104

dangrover wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but the price difference between buying normal and fair trade (as a consumer) is much larger than the price difference between the underlying coffee crop used in each. Tim Harford wrote about this: http://timharford.com/2008/04/business-life-fair-trade-or-fo... In some cases, he says, fair trade is 10X the margin! Fair trade exists to segment the market and collect more consumer surplus (more than it exists to im…

Also, the Fair Trade people will only certify certain business structures (they're really big fans of cooperatives), leaving a number of small family-owned businesses out of their world-view. Not that cooperatives are bad or anything, just that it's kind of a narrowing thing to do. They're opinionated. You may or may not agree with all those opinions. Fair-trade coffees are also subject to adverse selection. The real…

>You may get better results by buying normal and giving the savings away. //

Kinda like beating people up and then paying their hospital bills? Nice.

Re: The Knife Maker

#136

Post by neworbit » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:30 AM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #51

patio11 wrote: post #33

I'm torn between "This guy clearly enjoys his work, bully for him." and "The handmade movement is an extravagantly wasteful alternative to a factory in China to give rich white people an opportunity to demonstrate their social superiority over people who use functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion." (c.f. organic food, fair trade coffee, etc etc. This topic makes me positively Marxist. There…

> This really discomfits some people, so they get very creative at inventing reasons Nah, I think you're extrapolating to far. It's just a connoisseur mentality -- the same as for wine, scotch, guns, etc. It can be annoying, it's often untrue, but it taps into the same desire to be self-righteous that's buried in your post, and many of our day-to-day actions. Please don't interpret the previous sentence / paragraph t…

There are all sorts of cottage industries in the firearms business. My midwestern and southern relatives are extremely enthused about such things. Mostly it amounts to "customizing a stock weapon with aftermarket accessories" as far as I can tell - personalizing it and suiting it to your tastes and build. I'm not much of a gun guy - I can tell that this one has a better scope or a more comfortable grip, but the rest of it's kind of lost on me.

I think it's much the same sort of mindset as the folks who who like to customize their vehicles. In some cases, it's the same people, but if my relatives are any indication the overlap between those two circles isn't that high.

Re: The Knife Maker

#137

Post by dos1 » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:41 AM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #94

spacemanaki wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion" I haven't actually used this guy's knives. But I've used cheap knives and I've cut myself on cheap, dull knives that don't hold their edge. And I've used moderately expensive knives. It's night and day. Cheap knives just aren't functionally equivalent. The same can be said about coffee, chocolate and other fair trade stuff. Ground Maxwell coffee that…

Indeed. "Functionally equivalent" all too often misses the point. Endless arguments have been had over Apple computers vs. "functionally equivalent" computers for far lower costs ... funny thing is, it's Apple that has achieved "most valuable company worldwide period" status, showing customers see something superior in addition to the standard simplistic comparison charts. Ditto cars. For years I wondered "what is it…

It has been my experience that American craft breweries make the best beer in the world, period. German beers (in Germany) are very good to be sure. However, I feel like you're just spewing the company line. Everyone "knows" the Germans make great beer. Whatever. American craft breweries use better ingredients, have better process and infinitely more imagination. 20 years ago the Germans and Belgians made better beer than us. No longer.

Re: The Knife Maker

#138

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:42 AM UTC

cschmidt wrote: post #74

bh42222 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of pedantic asshole cares if the main benefit of fair trade is a sense of superiority? And it's quite something to claim the sense of smugness some people feel is a bigger deal than higher prices for farmers! Humans are instinctive, not as much as other animals, but still quite a bit. This is no way news. That we are driven by all kind of social trends, rather than pure reason is also damn old hat. I think…

>What kind of pedantic asshole cares if the main benefit of fair trade is a sense of superiority? > And it's quite something to claim the sense of smugness some people feel is a bigger deal than higher prices for farmers! Whoa, please be calm. I didn't say either of those things. I merely said the the main benefit to the consumer is X, and the main benefit to the producer is Y. I never said anything about the relativ…

>Of course, the key thing is that the farmers get a fair price. //

As a consumer of fairly traded goods this is the main benefit to me; that my purchases aren't forcing other people in to abject poverty, uneducation and poor health.

FWIW in the UK nearly all major supermarkets have own-brand Fairtrade marked coffee (for example) and there are Fairtrade coffees at a wide range of prices.

Yes bastard capitalists try to leverage people wanting to do right by their fellow man for profit but when fair trade becomes pervasive they are no more able to do this than with regular coffees now. That is when requiring that workers are fairly paid for their labour and protected from dangerous working conditions is considered part of the product (as it is for goods made in Europe say), as much as a packet is, then it becomes harder for middlemen to leverage this moral position to increase shelf prices.

Re: The Knife Maker

#139

Post by ugh » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:47 AM UTC

apechai wrote: post #58

z0r wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is not mass production that is the issue, but the short lifespan of the things we use. If every tool, every building, every mechanism - electronic or otherwise - lasted forever, or even just ten times as long, our economy and society would undergo radical changes as have never been seen before. (Sorry for what is both an obvious observation and a complete departure from the OP, but I have had this thought…

You're right - I wasn't referring to all mass produced things. But I do like it when someone buys (or makes) a gift that's unique, but cheap, rather than something generic but expensive. For example, take toys. There's this store that sells hand made toys around the block from me: http://playing-mantis.com/wooden.htm . Does it make sense for a kid to have 3 plastic toys they'll use for a couple of months and throw aw…

Lego are mass produced and they just don’t break. They are basically forever. I played with Lego through all my childhood and I broke maybe a handful of blocks.

“Mass produced” is just a bad heuristic for quality.

Re: The Knife Maker

#140

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 12:47 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #87

mc32 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like positively middle class factory produced Global knives. That said, to me, this movement is just an extension of the "Home Depot"/DIY effect --nothing more. It's not egotistical whites or egotistical Japanese who make hand-crafted goods only because they can afford to. It's people who enjoy craft for the sake of craft, rather than a show of superiority.

Yea, I identify with the guy, and as best I can tell he just enjoys his newfound craft. For someone like that, selling your work provides you two things- validation when other people like your work, and money to keep doing what you love doing.

>selling your work provides you two things- validation when other people like your work, and money //

The knife maker in the video actually stated that one reason he targeted the professional kitchen workers was that he wanted his products to be used and not just stuffed in a show case some where. You could add this in to "validation" but I think it misses the point here, given that he was equally encouraged that people loved his knives even if they bought them to be show pieces.

Making something that helps someone else to be productive is a great thing.