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Is the United States Exceptional?

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Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#131

Post by palmetieri2000 »

srvmshr wrote: post #128
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the 'better' question is why the logic of the US taking credit for an initiative that isn't (entirely or solely) theirs is considered an acceptable norm.

And how do you suppose intellectual credit be assigned? Let me illustrate my question I did my schooling in India, college in US & doctorate in Japan. Had I made a novel discovery, who should be apportioned the majority credit? The schools which taught me the basics, the college which taught me engineering or the specialization which earned me the hypothetical achievement? I think the credit assignment based on insti…

I think the majority of credit should be assigned to you. You clearly acknowledge that your learning is multinational and thus not evidence of the exceptionalism of the specific country your discovery occurred in but evidence of YOUR (and your teams) exceptionalism which has been facilitated by many nations regardless of the ultimate location of the discovery.

Take the story of Newton and the Apple, (I know its probably not accurate historically, but bare with me a moment). Are we concerned with if Newton was in London/Sicily/Barcelona/Paris when the proverbial apple fell? How about who owned the apple tree? No, the observation could have been made in any location. The variable which caused the "innovation" was the observer, not his location.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#132

Post by srvmshr »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #131
srvmshr wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you suppose intellectual credit be assigned? Let me illustrate my question I did my schooling in India, college in US & doctorate in Japan. Had I made a novel discovery, who should be apportioned the majority credit? The schools which taught me the basics, the college which taught me engineering or the specialization which earned me the hypothetical achievement? I think the credit assignment based on insti…

I think the majority of credit should be assigned to you. You clearly acknowledge that your learning is multinational and thus not evidence of the exceptionalism of the specific country your discovery occurred in but evidence of YOUR (and your teams) exceptionalism which has been facilitated by many nations regardless of the ultimate location of the discovery. Take the story of Newton and the Apple, (I know its proba…

That would be extremely benevolent to recognize individual achievement only

But then this situation begs the question on what basis research institutions & corporation will ask for continuing support. If all credit is apportioned to individual how is research funding to be justified? This answer will again lean on the individual's affiliation who has incidence within the institution where the discovery was made. We will be back to square one.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#133

Post by palmetieri2000 »

srvmshr wrote: post #132
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the majority of credit should be assigned to you. You clearly acknowledge that your learning is multinational and thus not evidence of the exceptionalism of the specific country your discovery occurred in but evidence of YOUR (and your teams) exceptionalism which has been facilitated by many nations regardless of the ultimate location of the discovery. Take the story of Newton and the Apple, (I know its proba…

That would be extremely benevolent to recognize individual achievement only But then this situation begs the question on what basis research institutions & corporation will ask for continuing support. If all credit is apportioned to individual how is research funding to be justified? This answer will again lean on the individual's affiliation who has incidence within the institution where the discovery was made. We w…

The research institution or corporation can demonstrate their expenditure of resources used for supporting the academic as they made their discovery.

Remember my original comment is within the context of exceptionalism and pride drawn from nationalistic achievement recognition, I think you are conflating credit with funding which are separate issues. A corporation or country is perfectly legitimate in saying 'We have been researching this and would like to receiving funding so we can continue" but a a country would not be correct in saying that "because this occurred here, it can only occur here and thus we are responsible for the discovery and thus exceptional".

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#134

Post by epolanski »

osigurdson wrote: post #81
epolanski wrote: post #12

The biggest issue we Europeans have with the american exceptionalism are the implications on foreign politics. Victoria Nuland giving cookies at the Maidan square and appointing the post Yanukovich government? US can. Paying italian Mafia to kill socialist workers in Italy? US can. Having US drunk air force peoppe kill 30 civillians in Italy because they wanted to see how low they coukd fly and sending them back home…

What about WWII, do you wish the US would have stayed out of that?

WW2 ended 77 years ago and it's time that we quit speaking about it as reasons to allow US do whatever they want on a geopolitical scale. Those are "deeds" of many generations ago.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#135

Post by stevenwoo »

WalterBright wrote: post #41
stevenwoo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also The Declaration of Independence is more an aspirational document that has almost nothing to do with the Constitution when it comes to laws, because some pigs were more equal than others, i.e. slaves and native Americans and women could not vote, and we are still dealing with problems from those parts and the undemocratic minority rule enshrined in the Constitution.

As I noted, the problems in America can be traced to not following those principles. That doesn't make the principles wrong. > undemocratic minority rule enshrined in the Constitution. The purpose of that is to protect the underlying rights of equality, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I.e. the sheep is protected from the two wolves voting on what's for dinner.

We have agree to disagree, the purpose of minority rule via voting rights/congressional apportionment was to protect the rights of property owners at the time, i.e. slave owners and land owners.

None of the nice thoughts that are in the Declaration of Independence was meant to apply to people not recognized as fully human beings (women/non-white males), if we go by the originalist mindset prevalent in the legal world now. We can't have it both ways, interpreting the Declaration of Independence in the broadest possible modern sense, then interpreting the Constitution in the meaning of the writers and state of the nation in 1789 when it was ratified.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#136

Post by ncmncm »

stevenwoo wrote: post #135
WalterBright wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I noted, the problems in America can be traced to not following those principles. That doesn't make the principles wrong. > undemocratic minority rule enshrined in the Constitution. The purpose of that is to protect the underlying rights of equality, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I.e. the sheep is protected from the two wolves voting on what's for dinner.

We have agree to disagree, the purpose of minority rule via voting rights/congressional apportionment was to protect the rights of property owners at the time, i.e. slave owners and land owners. None of the nice thoughts that are in the Declaration of Independence was meant to apply to people not recognized as fully human beings (women/non-white males), if we go by the originalist mindset prevalent in the legal world…

There really was at the time the concept of "the tyranny of the majority". The whole notion of "rights" is specifically to limit the power of the majority.

The majority normally never needs to have its rights protected. The majority serves itself. Minorities are who need protection.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#137

Post by stevenwoo »

ncmncm wrote: post #136
stevenwoo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have agree to disagree, the purpose of minority rule via voting rights/congressional apportionment was to protect the rights of property owners at the time, i.e. slave owners and land owners. None of the nice thoughts that are in the Declaration of Independence was meant to apply to people not recognized as fully human beings (women/non-white males), if we go by the originalist mindset prevalent in the legal world…

There really was at the time the concept of "the tyranny of the majority". The whole notion of "rights" is specifically to limit the power of the majority. The majority normally never needs to have its rights protected. The majority serves itself. Minorities are who need protection.

Yes, but we have in the USA somehow created a perverse system where we have minority rule that has the ability to take decisions that are not about minority rights away from the majority or stripping minority rights from even smaller minorities, for one example historical suppressed voting rights of African Americans and other groups, where only the African Americans have legal standing because we could only manage to pass a few constitutional amendments and laws after 200 years of injustice, other majority/minority groups it's still perfectly constitutional to suppress their votes. Mormons (that did not recognize dark skinned people as human beings as policy until recently) who are tiny percentage of USA population have pivotal role in US senate with decisive control of 1-2 states, and Roman Catholics make up a unbeatable majority of the Supreme Court that decides rules so we have this endless cycle feeding more power into those with capital.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#138

Post by ncmncm »

stevenwoo wrote: post #137
ncmncm wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really was at the time the concept of "the tyranny of the majority". The whole notion of "rights" is specifically to limit the power of the majority. The majority normally never needs to have its rights protected. The majority serves itself. Minorities are who need protection.

Yes, but we have in the USA somehow created a perverse system where we have minority rule that has the ability to take decisions that are not about minority rights away from the majority or stripping minority rights from even smaller minorities, for one example historical suppressed voting rights of African Americans and other groups, where only the African Americans have legal standing because we could only manage t…

Yes. The world has learned a great deal about governance in the past 200+ years that the US has mostly failed to apply. Its Constitution was supposed to be more adaptable, but each hint of flexibility has threatened to make things radically worse, instead, so we are afraid to try improving it.

Instead, we have the Supreme Court just make shit up.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#139

Post by rfreytag »

timbit42 wrote: post #115
rfreytag wrote: post #94

The author fails to consider the direction or rate of change the USA standing versus other nations. For most factors considered by the author the outlook is not good for the USA. Churchill did say the USA can be counted on to do the right thing after trying every other option; but nothing changes for the better if one's head is stuck in the sand.

It wasn't Churchill who said that.

Thank you - https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/11/exhaust-alternative... ... says it was likely Abba Evan.
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