The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#131

Post by moneywoes » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:12 PM UTC

dymk wrote: post #63

ido wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know we all want to believe we're the next Carmack but if there's a ton of solid engineers willing to work for a lot less money than you & at the same time global barriers drop that means downwards pressure from lower cost countries and upwards pressure from higher cost countries. I think the last decade or so was an anomaly due to the asset bubble inflating how much money (and how cheap that money was) tech compan…

You'd think that outsourcing would be all companies would be doing by now if there were indeed legions of capable software engineers willing to do just as good a job for a fraction of the price. That still appears to not be the case, despite remote (and so international) work becoming more commonplace with COVID.

Looking at the explosive growth of companies like Deel that worries me greatly

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#132

Post by jokethrowaway » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #81

nivenkos wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and for most working professionals you get sweet FA. Like here in Sweden we pay 40% income tax, 25% sales tax and still have to pay about $30 for each doctor visit. Dentistry is not included in the state health coverage. Neither are annual checkups of any kind, so diagnosis can be difficult and slow, etc. In Sweden, those taxes are just going to those who are lucky enough to have first-hand subsidised apartment…

I am not disputing what you're saying about your healthcare system, but if you get hit by a car, I would guess that nobody will be afraid to call an ambulance for fear of the cost. The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. You might take an uber to the hospital in Sweden too, out of convenience, but not out of fear for being stuck with a $1000 bill.

Good luck finding an ambulance in EU

You often need to find your own way to the hospital

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#133

Post by nerdponx » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #125

nerdponx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security). Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered cent…

> I don't need bridges because I don't drive Why should you pay for it? Let those who need it or stand to make money out of it to pay. There are alternative systems, we never had the freedom to try them outside of emperors / feudal kings / governments coercion: http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

This book has about the same information content as The Conquest of Bread: a lot of interesting ideas and idealistic speculation, and not a lot in the way of practical instructions for organizing a robust large-scale society.

Edit: It's worth remembering that the earliest highways in the USA were privately-owned toll roads. And that the first mass transit systems were privately owned railroads. There is a lot to be said for free markets and the price system! But there is also a reason that these pieces of infrastructure ended up under the government umbrella.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#134

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #108

Within FAANG, there is again tri-modal distribution. There are people who are hanging in there in IC roles for 15 years and then they are new comers straight out of school with PhD in deep learning and multiple competing offers. Both groups make approximately same money. Then there is upper management layer who have gotten promoted well beyond their competence by jumping internally and externally and they make 5X of…

However, an IC @ Google outside the US still makes 2-3x what their local employment market will pay even without playing all careerist & promo games.

Source: was IC @ Google.

Frankly I've accumulated the cynical opinion that Google wants to asphyxiate the local job markets of talent. They need to do this to keep their lead in advertising, etc., and they can afford to do it because of their lead. Paying 2x what local employers pay stops many local employers (usually underfunded by anemic local investment culture) from firing up some fancy new ad-tech startup or whatever.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#135

Post by dang » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

yread wrote: post #2

[2021] Previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26388936

Thanks! Macroexpanded:

Tripolar Nature of Software Engineering Salaries in the Netherlands and Europe - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26388936 - March 2021 (134 comments)

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#136

Post by fnbr » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

Wait, really? That’s incredible! €1-2k for a 2-3 bedroom apartment in Vienna? You would barely see that anywhere in Canada, let alone a major city.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#137

Post by angarg12 » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

My issue with this article is that it misrepresents a bit the people in the #3 tier, particularly those of pre-IPO companies.

Sure, there are people who join such a company and make 1M when they IPO. But that is a one time event, and the engineering equivalent of winning the lottery. Once you prorate that by the number of years worked, the risk of failing, etc. it doesn't look as attractive.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#138

Post by de6u99er » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:39 PM UTC

fnbr wrote: post #136

de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

Wait, really? That’s incredible! €1-2k for a 2-3 bedroom apartment in Vienna? You would barely see that anywhere in Canada, let alone a major city.

Yes:

https://www.immowelt.at/liste/wien/wohnungen/mieten?ami=100&...

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#139

Post by UweSchmidt » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:39 PM UTC

Have we discussed the requirements for those fancy "Tier 3" jobs? I suspect it's overall a lot harder than most regular dev jobs.

Many developers are medium sized fish in small ponds, where they can get away with moderate effectiveness, bad programming habits and little study, or, if they are good, they easily stand out and enjoy the honor of getting the harder tickets assigned, yet may not ever be really challenged.

These top paying companies all seem to do quite complicated stuff, serve a lot of users reliably and implement major features quickly. FAANG codebases seem large and involve a lot of (custom) tooling that devs need to grok and processes they need to understand. Just the author's passing advice to study up for those interviews means ... many hours of study in that "100%-concentration-mode" that many people are not willing or able to put in even for 1 hour.

No doubt there are some cosy pockets in FAANG but, ultimately, building AWS or Azure from nothing can simply only be done by a certain type of person who is willing to bring a certain amount of effort. And those people the market rightfully grants the appropriate salaries. Right?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#140

Post by bluepizza » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

siva7 wrote: post #85

ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

If you think a dev is a code monkey then yes, it doesn’t matter if you hire someone from vietnam or seattle for your US business. If you’re actually looking for a software engineer then i have bad news for you: professional software development is all about communication (with customers, requirements engineers, other developers and so on). That’s why you are paying them ten times more, so they have a chance to unders…

Even local subcontracting is quite difficult due to communication lines.

I’ve worked with very talented offshore developers. They had good English, good CS knowledge, and good work ethics. Results were always crap anyway. And their number one complaint was always “they don’t tell us enough, and we have to guess things”.